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View Diary: Syria and Kitty Genovese (41 comments)

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  •  Not analogous (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Johnny Q, Orla

    The crime was in progress in the Genovese case.  Here it's over and done with.  The question is the punishment, not saving the victims.

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Sat Sep 07, 2013 at 04:02:14 PM PDT

    •  I don't agree that it's over and done with (0+ / 0-)

      I think it's highly likely to continue. This was not the first use of sarin. There is little reason to think it will be the last.

      But I think this diary is... unlikely to go well, we'll say, for multiple reasons.

      •  Well, the UN seems to think that at least some (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Orla

        of the earlier uses wee by the rebels. Hmmmm. Oh yeah, they're too rag tag to do that, sorry, forgot.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

        by enhydra lutris on Sat Sep 07, 2013 at 04:24:04 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Point me to solid evidence (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ronnied, mookins

          and I will look. There was one statement from the UN that they might have, but no solid evidence was presented, to my knowledge. I'm open to evidence.

          It doesn't change the point, anyway. I'm not necessarily for the rebels. I'm against chemical warfare.

          •  supposedly new evidence (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            enhydra lutris, Spit

            There are currently FOUR UN labs testing this evidence, and preparing a narrative of where the chemicals came from. I certainly understand why we're all suspicious of our government, but it's not healthy or helpful to take an "always wrong" position. They might be right.

            A clay Buddha can't cross water. An iron Buddha can't go through a Furnace. A wood Buddha can't cross a fire. Nothing works all the time.

            by sfzendog on Sat Sep 07, 2013 at 06:05:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  How about 9/11 is solid evidence that you (0+ / 0-)

            can fool our oh so perfect, (almost never right yet) Intelligence services?

            That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

            by enhydra lutris on Sat Sep 07, 2013 at 06:08:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Can (0+ / 0-)

              but have they here? That's not evidence of this, it's conjecture.

              I'm not closed to it, but I have yet to see what points that way.

              •  There's also nothng yet supporting the other (0+ / 0-)

                theory but hearsay, some of which was admittedly supplied by the least credible source as to Syria.

                That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                by enhydra lutris on Sat Sep 07, 2013 at 07:05:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I disagree (0+ / 0-)

                  but in honesty have to go (again!) and can't provide links right now. I think there's far more than heresay, and I think the evidence of Assad using chemical weapons is fairly solid (not "proof", but solid evidence) unless the admin is actually lying. I can never rule out that they're lying, granted, but I kind of doubt it in this case, for multiple reasons.

      •  What's "go well" mean? (0+ / 0-)

        Be popular? You're probably right, but do you think the argument is sound?

        A clay Buddha can't cross water. An iron Buddha can't go through a Furnace. A wood Buddha can't cross a fire. Nothing works all the time.

        by sfzendog on Sat Sep 07, 2013 at 06:04:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think the base argument has merits, (0+ / 0-)

          ethically. I think they're likely to be overshadowed by using an analogy that hits on many unrelated(ish) sensitive spots, with many complications.

          That it's also an unpopular point of view you're hitting on here means, to me, that you'd be better served by making sure that people can't detract from your actual point by focusing on the specifics of Kitty Genovese, rape, murder, or any number of things. That one hits some spots for some folks.

          But I don't know whether it has gone that way and I haven't read all of the comments, it was my instinct. I mostly just think that it's an analogy likely to go in directions other than the point you're making.

          I have seen a lot of "it's not our problem," here and elsewhere, and I do understand why you're posing the question. The analogy has limits, but it also isn't out of nowhere. I agree with you that "not my problem" is not a very ethically sound way to view anything. To me, regarding injustice: if not me, then who?

    •  That's fair (0+ / 0-)

      That's a fair argument, but not an argument to do nothing. Suppose that Kitty Genovese's killer had not been caught and was free to do it again?

      A clay Buddha can't cross water. An iron Buddha can't go through a Furnace. A wood Buddha can't cross a fire. Nothing works all the time.

      by sfzendog on Sat Sep 07, 2013 at 06:03:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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