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View Diary: No Prayer Vigil for the Church's Victims (16 comments)

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  •  Every Middle East conflict has the potential (4+ / 0-)

    to become a significant regional war. If the Church wanted to stage a huge PR campaign showing Francis or any pope to be a moral leader, it has had dozens of opportunities before this. You're thinking that Pope Francis has a different political agenda than his predecessors and he does not. See http://www.dailykos.com/...

    •  The Syria conflict is different... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ahianne, marykk

      ...because that potential is much closer to being realized, what with the US's potential involvement, and the very real prospect of Russia taking the opposing side and making this a proxy war between the US and Russia.

      The Roman Church isn't the only world religious body to call its members to pray for peace in Syria recently, after having not really made much of an issue out of it before.

      Regardless, you still have yet to present any evidence at all that the intention of the Roman Church's call for prayer/fasting for peace in Syria is "meant to frame the Democratic president as a war monger." Do you actually have any evidence to that effect, or will you retract/soften the claim in light of your lack of evidence?

      "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

      by JamesGG on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 05:57:50 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I inserted a link about Francis' political goals (0+ / 0-)

        in this diary.

        •  You present as evidence... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          marykk

          ...a piece you yourself wrote setting forth what you believe to be Francis's more general political goals—a piece which is strongly disputed.

          However, even if we assumed that piece to be true, that piece would still not be sufficient evidence to support your specific claim that the timing of this specific action was "meant to frame the Democratic president as a war monger." That requires at least some kind of evidence from an authoritative source that speaks to this specific action.

          "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

          by JamesGG on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 07:59:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Where was Betty's piece (0+ / 0-)

            The Ersatz Pope "strongly disputed"?  I saw nothing but recs for the piece and supportive comments.

            •  Fair enough. That still doesn't make it truth. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              marykk

              That Ms. Clermont's interpretation of the new Pope was not strongly disputed by the users who were on this site at the time of its posting and who commented on the piece, does not elevate it from being a well-supported opinion to being absolute fact. It is still an interpretation of the situation and a reading of the evidence, albeit a well-sourced one.

              Furthermore, as I write, even if we assume that that piece about the general political goals of the new Pope is accurate, that piece still is not sufficient evidence to demonstrate that in this specific case, the intention of the Roman Church's action is to "frame the Democratic president as a war monger." The latter claim requires at least some evidence that refers to this specific action.

              "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

              by JamesGG on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 08:28:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We are discussing the pope of the Roman (0+ / 0-)

                Catholic church and you want "the truth"? This institution is the most corrupt and secretive place on the planet and has been so since its inception. For anyone like Betty to take the time and write "well sourced" articles trying to open the doors of this institution just a crack is a pleasure to see.

                Since the concoction of the fable of "Jesus Christ", this institution has been pulling the wool over the world's eyes and participating in manipulation of not only minds but governments. So saying that the pope has geopolitical goals or is trying to manipulate public opinion on something like Syria is not anything new or particularly surprising.

                •  So your perspective is that... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  marykk

                  ...anything that dings the Roman Church (or perhaps Christianity in general) is good. Fair enough. I can't agree with it, but that's what makes it your perspective and not mine.

                  But let's not confuse a general claim (to which I'd agree, to an extent) that "the pope has geopolitical goals" for evidence not only that this action is designed to "manipulate public opinion on something like Syria," but that this action is specifically designed to "frame the Democratic president as a war monger."

                  That goes well beyond "the Pope has an agenda"; it's a claim that "this specific thing is the Pope's agenda for this specific action." Thus, requires the person making the argument to marshal more specific evidence than an argument that the pope has a general geopolitical agenda.

                  "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." --Dom Helder Camara, archbishop of Recife

                  by JamesGG on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 08:49:04 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, I would agree you have a point (0+ / 0-)

                    and I will leave it to Betty to deal with.

                    As far as anything that "dings" the church...yes, I would say that after 2000 years of the world suffering from the presence and deeds of this institution and the fact that it is even still standing represents a huge imbalance that cries out for correction.

                    All one has to do is read the history of this institution to come to this conclusion.

                    As far as Christianity goes, it is a rock built on sand, a story built on thin air and vapors.  There is not a shred of evidence for its claims. The fact that a good portion of mankind believes in its tenets is simply a sad commentary on the status of the human race. We are still mired in mythologies and superstitions (not just Christian ones), and I do believe at this point that this runs counter to the potential of our progress as a species.

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