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View Diary: Open thread for night owls: Mark Ames on the 'True History of Libertarianism' (113 comments)

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  •  Polls and Democracy (8+ / 0-)
    Dean Rusk: "We're eyeball to eyeball, and I think the other fellow just blinked."---Cuban missile crisis 1962
    Back then, the stakes were thermonuclear annhialtion. On Oct 22, 1962, Kennedy's blockade plan was approved of by 84% of those that had heard of the plan, according to Gallup.

    http://www.gallup.com/...

    Today, so many (including Syria) want to surrender. Not so, the administration. I'm with the President on this one. This one. I'm with him for humanitarian reasons and for our future warriors. Once a bad idea takes hold, it's hell to defeat it, if at all. I'm in the minority.
    Yet, I applaud all the questions. It has been one of the finest examples of democracy in action I've witnessed since Watergate.
    Wonder what the polls will like be in the next few days, especially after tomorrow night. I have no idea.

     

    Betchu REALLY wanna vote, now.

    by franklyn on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 08:35:01 PM PDT

    •  Where Has a Humanitarian Benefit Been Suggested (7+ / 0-)

      plausibly?

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 08:44:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Where? All I know is me. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jeff Y, The House, MartyM

        I think the dead and future victims just may, possibly, kinda, sorta,  might suggest it.

        Betchu REALLY wanna vote, now.

        by franklyn on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 08:57:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The victims of which side? Both or only one? (6+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          basquebob, Not A Bot, caul, KJG52, JeffW, Brecht

          The rebels are killing civilians too and have been for some time.

          A Maaloula resident said the rebels, many of them sporting beards and shouting God is great, attacked Christian homes and churches shortly after moving into the village overnight.

          "They shot and killed people. I heard gunshots and then I saw three bodies lying in the middle of a street in the old quarters of the village," said the resident, reached by telephone from neighboring Jordan. "So many people fled the village for safety."
          ,,,
          He said the gunmen declined to allow fleeing people to take five dead bodies out of the village with them.

          He said one of the churches, called Demyanos, had been torched and that gunmen stormed into two other churches and robbed them.

          Most of the gunmen are foreigners, he said, adding that he heard different dialects, mainly of Tunisians, Libyans, Moroccans and Chechens.

          Another resident, a Christian man, said he saw militants forcing some Christian residents to convert to Islam. "I saw the militants grabbing five villagers Wednesday and threatening them (saying): 'Either you convert to Islam, or you will be beheaded,'" he said.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:19:34 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  And, in McClatchy: (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Not A Bot, DeadHead, caul, KJG52, JeffW
          A coalition of Syrian rebel groups that includes members of al Qaida took control of one of the oldest Christian villages in the world on Sunday, raising concern about the potential destruction of ancient shrines and churches.
          ....

          A statement from the Syrian Military Council, the group through which the West funnels aid to more moderate rebel groups, vowed to protect both the sites and “religious minorities” residing in the village.

          ...
          But the military council doesn’t command either the Nusra Front or Ahrar al Sham, and both groups have fought pitched battles with military council-affiliated groups before. Nusra and Ahrar al Sham generally are considered the anti-Assad movement’s most effective and aggressive rebel fighters, making it unclear that the military council would be able to enforce its pledge to protect the area.

          "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

          by YucatanMan on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:25:44 PM PDT

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          •  You're just full of good news. nt (0+ / 0-)

            Betchu REALLY wanna vote, now.

            by franklyn on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:27:30 PM PDT

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          •  YucatanMan (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            YucatanMan

            You make a point , a point that is hard to miss indeed

            But what is lost at this point is how this all started in Syria , Assad's forces gunning unarmed protesters down ...There are actual people who started all this , and there are actual people just trying to " NOT BE KILLED " by Assad and the gang , certainly you would not begrudge people for doing that ?

            On the American front , The Obama team has failed in "dick cheney fashion "  imo , apparently in obamas world , there has never been a Democrat who could sell a military action that saves people and stops a blood bath

            But maybe all this saber rattling will get both sides in Syria to knock it off

            Beer Drinkers & Hell Raisers

            by Patango on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 12:07:03 AM PDT

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            •  I agree that Assad is evil and that he started it. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Patango

              However, when we go looking for a "good side," there isn't one to be had.  

              Yes, there are reasonable Syrian leaders of civilians. However, they do not have control of the militias and rebels.  

              I don't know what the answer is, but I definitely think the USA can help insure:

               1)  That all refugees have sufficient shelter, food, water and medical treatment.

               2)  All nations are pressuring hard for peace.

               3)  All nations need to stop supplying arms and ammunition which is dragging out the killing everywhere.

              More than that, should the US bomb, and what will the consequences of our bombing be?  We cannot know, but since some/many of the rebels are intent on their own ethnic/religious cleansing, we should be very cautious.

              We know for sure that our bombs will kill more people. Will they all be Assad's people? Or some of the innocent civilians?

              When there are no good choices, the best choice is the one that does not include bombing.  (just my opinion, it is obvious everyone's mileage varies)

              "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

              by YucatanMan on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 09:52:01 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  poll (5+ / 0-)

      I think they will stay the same or get more against. (I am against.)

      And, I also have no idea. ;

    •  I think...and sometimes that gets me in trouble :) (10+ / 0-)

      If we really want to win 'hearts and minds' in Syria (Middle-East) we would start bombing the millions of Syrian refugee's who are living in tent cities right now, with food, household supplies and medical aide.

      And all of it (food, etc.) should have giant pictures of the American flag on the boxes that they're in so that the refugee's would know exactly where they came from.

      ------"Load up on guns, bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend."------- Kurt Cobain

      by Jeff Y on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 09:00:28 PM PDT

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    •  about Dean Rusk (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Aunt Pat, Not A Bot, caul, KJG52

      Presumably he didn't know that Kennedy had made a back-channels deal to remove missiles from Turkey.  If he had known that, his quote looks bizarre.  As it stands, it looks uninformed.

      Keep praising yourself for your willingness to bomb people for humanitarian reasons.  

    •  Franklyn, it's going to take a whole lot of work (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      YucatanMan, caul, KJG52, JeffW

      to convince me that there is a faction in Syria worthy of our military assistance, and even more work to convince me that bombing the place is going to help the common folks.  Maybe a smart bomb through Assad's breakfast nook window would do the trick, but what comes next?  Installation of a stable government like we did in Iraq and Afghanistan?  Another nutcase Muslim Brotherhood takeover, with help from al Qaeda?  A military coup?  A few more decades of civil war?

      The fact is, nobody on this planet, not President Obama, not a soul in the State Department, and not you or I, has a clue what will happen if and when Assad is gone, and whether the people of Syria will be better or worse off.  On top of that, there is no way to predict possible regional spillover.  I have daughters and granddaughters living easily within range of artillery and missiles from a number of Arab/Muslim/Persian nations that would like nothing better than an excuse to drag Israel into a regional conflict.  No thanks.

      The President, Kerry, and the other newborn warmongers can take this war and shove it.  Folks like you, who obviously are promoting a new war as eagerly as did supporters of Bush and Powell and Rumsfeld, appear to have no clue as to the precariousness of the stability in that part of the world, nor, I assume, do you have kin on the ground.

      I could be wrong.

      Romae in die non combureretur.

      by Not A Bot on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:03:54 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Upon rereading my post, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        caul, JeffW

        I hope it doesn't come across as a personal attack, Franklyn.  It wasn't meant that way.

        Romae in die non combureretur.

        by Not A Bot on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:07:58 PM PDT

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      •  Yes, you could certainly be wrong. (0+ / 0-)
        Folks like you, who obviously are promoting a new war as eagerly as did supporters of Bush and Powell and Rumsfeld...
        I'm sorry you feel that way. Feel, as opposed to know.

        Betchu REALLY wanna vote, now.

        by franklyn on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:12:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  All I know about you is what you've written, (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          franklyn, caul, KJG52

          and that you're named after a fellow who flew kites, and that you somehow seem to believe that bombing Syria is going to make things better for Syrians.  I haven't read your every post, but those I have read offer no indication of proof (or even plausible hope) of positive outcome, nor any explanation of how bombing Syrians is going to help Syrians, nor of what happens after we unseat Assad, if, G-d forbid, we involve ourselves in yet another war.

          I did offer some realistic concerns in my lengthy post above, and you addressed none of them, except with what I think younger folks call "snarky" comments, just as you made the silly ass-u-me comment up yonder.  

          How about discussing your ideas?  How, specifically, will starting a new war in the midst of a civil war help the Syrian people?  How will it, as you mentioned above, be of any assistance to our warriors?  Do you have any idea what happens next in Syria, after we start bombing?  Do you know whether or not there will be spillover?  

          Anything?  Anything at all?  

          Romae in die non combureretur.

          by Not A Bot on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 10:47:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thanks for asking. (0+ / 0-)

            I have called  for the report of the UN to determine if chemical weapons were used prior to action. This was to bring the rest of the world on board on that account. I have no doubt as to the results.
            Next, who had the weapons and who had the motive? Puhleeze. Monumentally less circumstantial evidence has sent men to the death chamber.
            For 88 years this behavior has been outlawed by an entire world. This law has not been adhered to. Because of that, Syria has bucked the system.
            It is time to enforce the law. Because we didn't enforce international law before is not a reason to continue that folly.
            As we all know, an idea, once unleashed, can become eternal. That includes horrific ideas. Ideas like permissible genocide. Ideas to be resisted with all our being.
            What to do?
            We can throw our hands up and accept the seeming fate of it all. Or we can resist.
            The big question is how, of course.
            We can wait on a diplomatic solution. I'm sure Syria would like that.
            Or, we can strike strategically with the military. Go in and hit the weapons, and the weapons development sites.
            Collateral death would assuredly occur. I do not deny that.
            I cannot. Therein lies the sickening dilemma.
            Collateral death, now, or in the future, and yes, including our own military.
            Do you see what the man  so many of have championed is going through? Right now? This minute?
            As far as future involvement, I, myself, would have to be convinced of that in no uncertain terms.
            Let us hope that todays developments render this academic.

            Betchu REALLY wanna vote, now.

            by franklyn on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 11:54:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  Personal attacks not warranted. Neither the (4+ / 0-)

        President or Franklyn are warmongers.

        Quite the opposite. Some folks actually respect President Obama, myself included, and are willing to trust he is doing his level best to keep the peace.

        Sometimes that means making hard choices, not to bomb people, but to take out capability for future missile and air attacks of chemical weapons and to send a message to those who would push the limits of use of weapons of mass destruction.

        No easy calls here.  And no need to insult the President or those who give him some respect and support.

        •  Thank you /nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Tortmaster

          "I don't love writing, but I love having written" ~ Dorothy Parker // Visit my Handmade Gallery on Zibbet

          by jan4insight on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 11:03:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I didn't call Franklyn a warmonger (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          caul

          I might have lumped him in with supporters of warmongers.  There's a difference.

          My opinions on President Obama and John Kerry are my own -- opinions about politicians are not personal insults, not according to the rules here.  If I believe Obama and Kerry are warmongering, that's just how I see it.  Others see things differently.  Of course, my opinion might have been influenced by the two of them spending several weeks trying to, well, for lack of a better phrase, drum up support for a war that most of this nation and most of the world doesn't believe is warranted.  

          Romae in die non combureretur.

          by Not A Bot on Mon Sep 09, 2013 at 11:32:14 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That you apparently don't ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            willrob

            ... even consider the possibility that President Obama was, to paraphrase your own terminology, "drumming up support for" peace is quite telling. And now, after talking tough, America seems to have a new ally in the effort to destroy Syria's chemical weapons in Putin's Russia.

            The President had cred built in for his threats based upon his decision to take out bin Laden in Pakistan. He has, at least, seemingly made a believer out of Putin and you.

            Who knows what will happen from here on out, but the table has been set by President Obama for a satisfactory end to a situation many thought was unwinnable. Your opinion to the contrary is noted.
             

            Rand Paul is to civil liberties as the Disney Channel is to subtle and nuanced acting.

            by Tortmaster on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 12:43:02 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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