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View Diary: Choose: Freedom or NSA Total Information Awareness Surveillance. It's Either One, or The Other (111 comments)

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  •  there seems to be some talking-past here (3+ / 0-)

    How would you know whether the government had dismantled its "spying programs and institutions"?

    "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

    by HudsonValleyMark on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 03:36:14 AM PDT

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    •  We could fire everyone at the NSA, CIA (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador

      and FBI then bulldoze their offices.

      Then we could put the ones that committed, ordered and supported these criminal acts in jail.

      It would be very ugly for a time but we'd send a clear message to any future employees, we find out you're doing something you shouldn't be, we will prosecute you.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 06:43:38 AM PDT

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      •  I don't see how that would work (6+ / 0-)

        You'd be firing lots of people who had absolutely nothing to do with the actions you disapprove of -- wiping out our intelligence operations -- and you still wouldn't have any assurance that there wasn't a secret program going on somewhere else.

        I'm not saying that we have to let the NSA or other agencies run amok. Obviously there are many ways to crack down on them without obliterating them. But in general I'm skeptical of libertarian efforts to prevent government abuses by wiping out large parts of government.

        "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

        by HudsonValleyMark on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 08:47:54 AM PDT

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        •  "Libertarian efforts"??? "wouldn't have any (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ray Pensador

          assurances that there wasn't a secret program...somewhere else"??

          Defeatist mentality and labeling the reaction "libertarian" is disingenuous.   How many people do we need to spying on the American people 24/7/365?  Zero.  And yes, "intelligence" has taken billions of our tax dollars each year, not including the black budgets we aren't allowed to know about.  Funny you should say "wiping out large parts of our government", that's exactly the problem.  It's gotten so big, we can't control it, as it stands.

          How did we guarantee the Soviets kept to the Start Treaty Agreements? And them with us?

          Verification.

          See, that wasn't so hard, really.  My suggestion might be a bit overboard, but what this rogue government is doing must be stopped.  Those violating the law, should be prosecuted.  If your job is to break the law, then we really don't need you.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 11:44:27 AM PDT

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          •  it isn't disingenous in the slightest (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            serendipityisabitch

            Reducing the government's capacity to do harm by reducing its capacity to do anything is quintessentially a libertarian approach. Of course that doesn't mean that advocating the obliteration of the NSA, FBI, and CIA makes you a consistent libertarian.

            I have no idea what you're trying to say about "defeatist mentality," but since Ray stopped by to recommend your comment, maybe he'll explain why that isn't an ad hominem. :)

            If your job is to break the law, then we really don't need you.
            I think we agree on that, at least. (I'm sure we agree on other things as well.)

            "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

            by HudsonValleyMark on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 04:14:51 PM PDT

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            •  Apologies, your argument is defeatist. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ray Pensador, HudsonValleyMark

              I really don't know if you see the glass half empty or half full.

              I think we need to do something constructive and hashing out the details is very important.  My historical reviews of the crimes of the FBI, The CIA and now the NSA could be addressed by just shutting them down and starting over.  

              The culture of corruption in these agencies would never be addressed by "restructuring".  The career employees that have spent their entire lives living and believing they are above the law could never be corrected.

              While to you it may appear that I want to shut down our government, nope, it can be a force for good, if we get the right people in there, it once actually did things for "We The People" once, not against us.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 06:20:23 PM PDT

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              •  OK (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea
                I think we need to do something constructive and hashing out the details is very important.
                I agree.
                The culture of corruption in these agencies would never be addressed by "restructuring".  The career employees that have spent their entire lives living and believing they are above the law could never be corrected.
                I am unconvinced that many career employees in these agencies have spent their entire careers "believing they are above the law." It is logically possible that everyone should be fired regardless, but I am really skeptical. And I think we should be wary of broad-brush derogations of government employees, even in agencies that we regard as intrinsically suspect.
                While to you it may appear that I want to shut down our government....
                Nope, I wasn't trying to pin that on you. My intended point was much narrower.

                "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

                by HudsonValleyMark on Wed Sep 11, 2013 at 05:51:58 AM PDT

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