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View Diary: Choose: Freedom or NSA Total Information Awareness Surveillance. It's Either One, or The Other (111 comments)

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  •  Let me start with the poorly-disguised fallacies (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lostinamerica

    and then I'll address the ad hominem.

    The first is the relentless meme the 5 to 6 people that follow me around every diary are so desperately trying to spread in order to malign my character: that I unfairly attack anybody who disagrees with me.

    That is false.  As I've written many times before, if I present an argument, and you come back with a counter-argument that focuses on the issue instead of ascribing maligning attributes to my character (an ad hominem), I will engage in the debate.  If the argument you present is strong, is based on evidence, and facts, I will always be ready to reconsider my conclusions.

    As I've written many times before I'm only interested in the unadulterated truth about any topic, and I will review my conclusions on anything if evidence to the contrary is presented; I have no problem saying, "Yes, you've presented a powerful argument and evidence and based on that, I was wrong."

    Regarding the UID and the "flameout" meme/ad hominem that seeks to malign me as just another flame-out-in-waiting, I've been writing and debating online for almost 15 years now...

    The other side of the coin of what you report is that maybe people like Cenk, Glenn, etc., are eventually pushed out from this site--for whatever reason.

    So I'm fully aware/cognizant of what may end up happening.  I think that soon or later, it will happen, but it doesn't mean much if the reason is that some have an interest in drowning out certain voices/perspectives.

    Finally, the last unwarranted ad hominem, attacking people who suposodely "agree with me with everything I say and echo chamber [me] frequently," that one is as nasty and transparent as it gets.  I don't think I need to expand on it.

    •  Actually.... (5+ / 0-)

      part of the issue is that you are insisting/implying that I am being nasty which clearly I am not.

      First, every diarist here who gains some note/popularity ends up with an echo chamber of varying sizes, so that comment is neither a reflection of your ideas or ideology but a commentary on the metrics of what happen here. I am not attacking those people I am observing that they exist.

      Second, I don't give a shit  about the celebrity leftist/progressives who got pushed out  because they inevitably find a forum elsewhere there are other people much better writers, more interesting, more interactive and more creative who have suffered that fate, people I miss and wish were still here. So, I am not wishing the same thing to happen to you, but if you want to think that, fine. Why you think I as a reader wish you might disappear/burn out flame out is beyond me.

      Finally, I do not believe in that the unadulterated truth exists in any form about any topic ever. People who purport to know that unadulterated truth, who claim ( you are not in this category ) to be the only ones to possess the secret unadulterated truth are not appealing to me. Usually people who claim to speak the truth like to use it as a weapon rather than as a teacher.

      However, I might not be the smartest DK member in the universe but I am not the dumbest either. Believe it or not I can actually recognize a circular and unproductive exchange.

      So, have a nice day.

      •  Yes, the circular logical fallacy in this exhcange (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        lostinamerica

        is obvious.  The double-speak also comes trough...

        One of the most important endeavors a human being can engage in is in seeking the truth, which is a life-long process.

        Others purposely work on suppressing it.

      •  Nice try. (4+ / 0-)

        "You're either with me or against me."

        Apparently.

        Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

        by Bob Johnson on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 10:05:53 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No, follow the site guidelines; don't engage in (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          lostinamerica

          ad hominems and fallacious arguments; stick to the facts, present a counter argument, do't attack the diarist, attack the argument.  Do that even if you strongly disagree with me, and I'm game.

          When people violate the don't be a dick rule, or engage in personal insults and logical fallacies, I'm going to call them on it every single time.

          This DBAD stuff actually is not that complicated.

          •  I read the thread, Ray. (7+ / 0-)

            undercovercalico used none of the above... No ad hominems. No fallacious arguments. No personal insults. No attacking of the diarist or DBAD behavior.

            You need to try on a new pair of glasses.

            Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

            by Bob Johnson on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 10:12:29 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Here you go: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lostinamerica
              Logical fallacy and ad hominem
              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              "Did we ever live in a democracy...

              Ad hominem to me, and also insulting people who agree with me

              I hate to pull the UID card but I am gonna do it. I have been here a long time I have seen a lot of rabble rousing diarists come and go and get hot and burn out. I am not telling you how to write, just really read some of the comments in a careful way because there are basically three groups of people who come into your diaries: one are the people who agree with everything you say and echo chamber you very frequently, two, the people who challenge you right off without really reading what you wrote, and three, people who read you frequently sometimes comment sometimes don't sometimes agree and sometimes don't but on a broader scale more or less think you make valid points. Just my thoughts, you can consider them or not, life goes on either way.
              Poor disguised attempt at repeating the meme that I'm an absolutist
              People who purport to know that unadulterated truth, who claim ( you are not in this category ) to be the only ones to possess the secret unadulterated truth are not appealing to me. Usually people who claim to speak the truth like to use it as a weapon rather than as a teacher
              •  Wow. (9+ / 0-)

                I think you're reading of both of those section is way, way off. undercovercalico was being positive, not attacking. As undercovercalico noted, people who post a lot here often accumulate an echo chamber fan club, not just you. It's the nature of the place, Ray.

                That second part is undercovercalico's observation of your writing style. The mention of the "truth" at the end is in direct response to your comment where you wrote:

                As I've written many times before I'm only interested in the unadulterated truth about any topic, and I will review my conclusions on anything if evidence to the contrary is presented; I have no problem saying, "Yes, you've presented a powerful argument and evidence and based on that, I was wrong."
                I think you're reading undercovercalico's posts in completely the wrong light. They weren't attacks at all. I think your defensiveness gets the better of you.

                Have a nice day, Ray.

                Calling other DKos members "weenies" is a personal insult and therefore against site rules.

                by Bob Johnson on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 10:28:14 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  All that for the last jab: (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  lostinamerica
                  I think your defensiveness gets the better of you.
                  People can read for themselves:
                  rabble rousing diarists come and go and get hot and burn out
                  That's insulting.  I write carefully.  I research the facts; I add reference information...
                  one are the people who agree with everything you say and echo chamber you very frequently
                  That's an insult to the intelligence of people who happen to agree with me.  Implying that they agree with me on "everything" and that they are an "echo chamber" is insulting.

                  Nice try.

                •  Thanks Bob that is exactly (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  serendipityisabitch

                  what I was trying to say, that all diarists aquire followings. Heck, I follow people. I think the answer is that there probably is not a good place for me in Ray's diary discussions and maybe I should just read silently.

                  •  or you could keep commenting (2+ / 0-)

                    and wait for Ray to request that you voluntarily stop commenting, as he just did to me.

                    •  I probably (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      erratic, Sylv, serendipityisabitch

                      will just "pre" honor the non given request. My idea of engagement and dialogue and Ray's are clearly very different now that I have dared to show mild disagreement and  mild critique it is clear that I have been put in a "camp" with the unsavory types and I will be accused of one of the two favorite memes that pop up with Ray. I am sure my quality of life will remain unaltered if I volunteer myself out. There is no shortage of interesting diaries to read here.

                      •  The relentless attempt at purposely maligning (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        lostinamerica

                        my character is going to fail.  Everybody can see the handful of people trying desperately; it's so bizarre that is actually sloppy.

                        It's very simple: I encourage you to follow the site guidelines when you comment in my diaries.  Avoid insults, innuendo about personal negative character traits, and fallacies.

                        I put a proposition forward, and if you don't agree, make your case, put forward a cogent counter-argument, and I'll be glad to engage.

                        •  Ray, would you be so kind as to suggest one or two (0+ / 0-)

                          counter-arguments on the subject of this diary that you would not see as "purposely(sic) maligning" you?

                          I would be delighted if at the end of each diary you would include those arguments to which you would be willing to respond on their merits. At this point I find it extremely difficult to imagine a not wholly positive response to which you would not reply negatively, so a list of those would be very much appreciated.

                          At least half the future I've been expecting hasn't gotten here yet. Sigh.... (Yes, there's gender bias in my name; no, I wasn't thinking about it when I signed up. My apologies.)

                          by serendipityisabitch on Tue Sep 10, 2013 at 06:35:54 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

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