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View Diary: US Covered-Up for Decades the Largest Use of Biological & Chemical Weapons in History (240 comments)

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  •  I'm unclear what this has to do with Syria using (14+ / 0-)

    CW in 2013 and the US having a major problem with that. I

    f you think the Japanese involved in these horific acts should have faced some personal punishment (we dropped 2 nukes on their country so that should be suficient collective punishment), then why would you take issue with punishing Assad?
    I can hold the position that the US shouldn't have covered these crimes up and should have prosecuted the individuals responsible. AND still believe that the US should criticize and do something (I like taking them away and destroying them) about Syria using CW. They aren't contradictory views.

    •  I respect your opinion (19+ / 0-)

      even if I disagree. The sum total of everything I've written, and others comments on napalm, Iraq, etc., leads me to find the US claims on intelligence in this matter to be unreliable.

      If the US wants to show good faith, they can declassify and release all the records they have on Unit 731 and the Japanese use of chemical weapons, and take actions against those in the military who were involved in the destruction of documents related to this as late as 1998.

      Why won't they do that? Ask yourself that. Then wonder even more why we should believe what they are telling us now.

      War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

      by Valtin on Wed Sep 11, 2013 at 01:33:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If I may, . . . (30+ / 0-)

      Your last paragraph spells out the point.  You see no conflict between finding WWII Japanese use of biological and chemical weapons to be heinous and finding Syrian use of CW to be heinous and decrying both.  The diarist's point is that the US govt did not take that position and still does not.  It never decried or prosecuted the Japanese perpetrators.

      Is it right to decry and seek to stem the use of chemical and biological weapons and strive for legal justice when they are used?  I suspect there is not one person who'd answer in the negative.  Is it revelatory that our government does so only in the most inconsistent manner, almost always when it serves another agenda that benefits itself or a close ally?  I'd say that reduces the credibility of our moral outrage, no matter how merited that outrage might be.

      At least that's what I took from the diary.

      •  Yes, you got it exactly! (10+ / 0-)


        War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

        by Valtin on Wed Sep 11, 2013 at 01:38:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  my issue with this is thus... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Valtin, duhban, 6412093, SeanF, kurt

          It seems that you are stating that due to the US having a role in covering up CW use in WW 2 that the US condenning CW use right now is inconsistent. The problem I have with that is that the administration that covered up the Japanese CW use is not the curent administration.  It's not even close. There is not a single government official seving now that was seving during the time that decision was made. Barack Obama doesn't have to be "consistent" with the aftions of previous administrations in order ti have moral standing on this issue, he only needs to be consistent with himself and his own policies (whether or not he has done that is a topc for a whole diary on it's own I'd imagine).
          Was the Japanese use of CW horrific? Yes. Was the Truman administration coverup the wrong thing to do? Yes. Does that mean that we are forever chained to that decision,  that we must always look down and say that we don't have a leg to stand on because of that? Not in my view. That would be similar to saying we shouldn't have interfered in Rwanda because of our role in the genocide of Native Americans.
          Anyhow, it's a fascinating diary and I will go link hjnting once I'm homefrom work, I just wanted to put in my two cents on the premise that Ameica is being inconsistent.
          Apologies for the spelling and grammar errors, I'm on a phone.

          •  If (13+ / 0-)

            If the only reason to oppose the Obama administration were the facts I brought up in this diary, then I think you'd have a point. (Although Obama could declassify all the old Unit 731 amnesty and BW material, but he hasn't.)

            It's putting this all together with a number of other factors that is important. I named some, but not all of them, towards the close of the diary. Here some, including one's I didn't mention but other commenters have: Iraq war and WMD, use of white phosphorus, use of Agent Orange, illegal experiments on soldiers re chemical warfare and radiation, assassination policy, torture policy, murder of millions in wars in Indochina, backing of mass kidnapping and torture in Latin America (Operation Condor), turning over names of 100,000 to be murdered in 1965 Indonesian coup, cover-up of war crimes in Afghanistan, torture and indefinite detention policies, a current Army Field Manual that denies equal treatment to all prisoners (and allows some to be submitted to cruel, inhumane treatment).

            I could go on and on. The Obama administration is not culpable for all of these, but it is the continuator of a government whose policies are connected as one whole through peaceful modern transfers of administrations for decades (excluding, I think, the Kennedy administration, which ended in assassination).

            I'm only adding one link to the chain. One link. An important link, but not the only one.

            It's not about Obama. Really. It's about the government for which he is temporarily the head.

            War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

            by Valtin on Wed Sep 11, 2013 at 03:58:16 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Ok, I see where you are (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AZ Sphinx Moth, kurt

              coming from. I may not agree with where you end up but I can now at least understand the thrust of your argument. I would argue that we asa ccountry have a responsibility to own up to our past mistakes as a nation (an acknowledgement of the native American genocide would be a good start).
              At the same time I don't think that this obviates our (and the worlds) responsibility to keep CW from being used. As to whether that means we should use force? I don't think we should, and have called my congresscritter to say so.
              Anyhow, as you may be able to ascertain,  my thoughts on the Syria issue are pretty muddled at best.
              Thanks again for the diary though, it's interesting and I learned about something I had no previous knowledge of.

            •  Yes this is a good explanation (0+ / 0-)

              Not sure I agree with your conclusion either, but it is a very good argument that we are inconsistent now with what we condone and what we find outrageous. And it is very convenient for us that we are usually outraged by atrocities when they serve another agenda. I am not convinced that is the case with Syria, and I believe Obama's intentions are sincere and transparent. But he is only so important to the entire debate. As you said somewhere in this thread, it's the government that he heads that is the topic here. Not Obama the man.

              I hear gardening is a nice hobby.

              by SeanF on Wed Sep 11, 2013 at 04:49:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  We stopped them though, right? Like when we (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        occupied them?

        While you dream of Utopia, we're here on Earth, getting things done.

        by GoGoGoEverton on Wed Sep 11, 2013 at 02:09:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Two answers. (9+ / 0-)

          (1)  If we're still comparing Japan and Syria, I take it you are arguing for boots on the ground to resolve the CW issue in the latter location.

          (2)  I guarantee you we didn't occupy Japan to stop their program of biological and chemical weapons.  Those programs presumably stopped when the sites where those programs took place on the mainland were retaken.  Occupation of Japan, however, certainly carried with it a secondary outcome of our covering up the Japanese biological and chemical weapons program, but I'll let others argue that that may have been a motivation for occupation.

          •  Still comparing? That's the point of the diary. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            hmi, duhban, 6412093, sweatyb


            1. Is a ridiculous conclusion...i'm pointing out that we stopped the Japanese from committing this and several other atrocities, so I think focusing on whether or not we were outrage-y enough on one particular atrocity and that somehow affects our standing on another one 70 years later is specious at best.

            2. We occupied Japan to stop them, period.

            While you dream of Utopia, we're here on Earth, getting things done.

            by GoGoGoEverton on Wed Sep 11, 2013 at 02:38:40 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  And how many Japanese civilians were killed (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Valtin, strangely enough

          by Allied air-raids? Wasn't it millions?

          •  Yep. What's your point? Are you saying (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sweatyb, chmood, fladem

            we shouldn't have fought the Japanese in WWII?

            While you dream of Utopia, we're here on Earth, getting things done.

            by GoGoGoEverton on Wed Sep 11, 2013 at 02:37:06 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not at all- but pretending a war can "stay small" (0+ / 0-)

              and have "minimal" civilian casualties even after the U.S. takes military action is not borne out by history. That seems to be what John Kerry is saying (he used similar words).

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