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  •  So, some DNA does survive? (2+ / 0-)
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    JamieG from Md, Expat Okie

    You had stated:

    Your stomach is full of strong acid which does and will rapidly degrade any dna you might invest(sp)
    And now:
    Every intestinal parasite I can think of has adopted strategies including specialized protective coatings to get past the stomach
    My comment is hardly anti-science. I know for fact that some DNA can survive stomach acid. So do you (obviously). So I am not willing to accept an argument that is based on the fallacy that stomach acid "will rapidly degrade any dna". I certainly agree that most DNA is degraded in the stomach. GMO DNA? I don't know. I do know that the DNA of these organisms has been modified.

    "Jesus don't like killing, no matter what the reasons for." - John Prine

    by JoeEngineer on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 05:48:28 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  /sigh (1+ / 0-)
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      Let's try this again intestinal parsites have had to evolve to survive the stomach. Your comparison is not valid and frankly isn't even in the same solar system as what I am talking about.

      And you know for a fact? Well let's see your facts then because I am telling you as a chemist concentrated sulfuric acid rapidly degrades DNA in an acid-base reaction.

      But please 'wow me' with your sources and your science.

      •  Ever have a stomach flu? (0+ / 0-)
        The most common way to develop viral gastroenteritis — often called stomach flu — is through contact with an infected person or ingestion of contaminated food or water. (fromWebMD
        Of course, it is pretty common knowledge that eating contaminated food or drinking contaminated water can lead to all sorts of maladies. Do I need to research that? I don't think so. I know this from my years of camp-outs with the Boy Scouts. We sterilized the water for a reason. And we paid a price for drinking from the stream directly.

        So, perhaps know is too string a word and implies a more details level of understanding than I might personally posses. But I have pretty high confidence that lots of various bacteria, viruses, and parasites manage to live through the stomach at least long enough to get into my systems and cause me harm.

        I know that when I visited India and ate raw vegetables, I regretted it. Perhaps not conclusive, but I felt convinced.

        So, can I believe that all DNA is degraded or destroyed my stomach acid? Nope.

        Can I make any assumptions about the structure or content of GMOs? Again, nope. I make no assertion that they are harmful. I have nothing to base a conclusion on yet. And it is not an issue I am very concerned with. But when I am told to not worry because my stomach acid protects me, I don't believe that. It runs counter to my experience.

        "Jesus don't like killing, no matter what the reasons for." - John Prine

        by JoeEngineer on Thu Sep 12, 2013 at 06:46:23 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  this is absurd (0+ / 0-)

          Really it is and frankly you are so anti science that you remind me again why whether it's anti science from the right or left it's still an act of supreme stupidity.

          I could explain to you how you are comparing millions of years of evolution for organisms that are designed to get past all the obstacles to DNA.

          I could explain that you clearly don't know anything but are so arrogant that you'll spout off any half assed theory while being ignorant of things like acid-base chemistry or that the stacking effect plus van dal waal forces are what keeps DNA as DNA.

          I could explain that that your anecdotal is just that, anecdotal and further it actually is evidence of something entirely different then your cells being invaded by random strands of DNA.

          I could point out that you are making rampant assumptions as we speak with absolutely no scientific basis for them.

          But really I can't help but regard that as a waste of my time. If you truly want to know then I suggest you do your own research. Look into those organism and the mechanisms and tactics they use to achieve what they achieve  and then research DNA and how susceptible to acid damage it is.  And then ask yourself, how likely is it that raw DNA is going to survive though the stomach? How likely is it that it will in turn be absorbed into the body? How likely is it that that DNA is then magically pulled into a cell? Because cells don't do that fyi and then finally how likely is it that it will be incorporated into the DNA?

          The vast majority of actual scientists don't think it likely your DNA can be contaminated by GMO crops and the vast majority of studies have confirmed their safety.  

          •  Your reference contradicts you (1+ / 0-)

            I won't bother to respond to your insults. But I am not arguing any half-assed theory; I am refuting yours. Specifically, "Your stomach is full of strong acid which does and will rapidly degrade any dna you might invest". I have not in this thread ever provided any theory regarding GMO, I have simply stated what is obvious to most of us; there are many examples of dna based organisms surviving through the stomach and digestive system. I have no theory about why, just observational evident that they do.

            But I will quote from one of the two references you provided in a comment further up this thread:

            here's a full fledged report:


            do I need to continue?

            5.12.2. DNA uptake during digestion
            of GM foods

            A study on mice demonstrated that foreign DNA
            present in food can be transferred from the
            digestive tract to the bloodstream of animals that
            eat the food
            . This foreign DNA was also found in
            white blood cells and in the cells of many other
            tissues of the mice.[170]

            In a separate study, foreign
            DNA in a diet fed to pregnant mice was found
            in the organs of their foetuses and newborn offspring.
            The foreign DNA was believed to have
            reached the foetus through the placenta.[171]

            It has also been shown that GM DNA in feed
            can be taken up in the organs of the animals that
            eat it and can be detected in the meat and fish that
            people eat
            . [172,173,174,175]

            My bolding.

            This section (and others within this report), appear to contradict your statement. Not my theory, just the reference you provided.

            "Jesus don't like killing, no matter what the reasons for." - John Prine

            by JoeEngineer on Fri Sep 13, 2013 at 01:57:10 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  you are still arguing only half way there (0+ / 0-)

              Even if I concede that point to you you have still not provided a single study showing that foreign DNA then is absorbed into the cell and into the cell structure.

              And because you are being so dishonest about this you can do your own work. Not that I expect you to  but this is like arguing with flat earthers or the vaccination CT groups.

              •  You are asking for proof on a point I never made. (0+ / 0-)

                I have not once said that "foreign DNA is absorbed into the cell and and into the cell structure" or suggested anything similar. This is a strawman argument you are going to. If you care to follow scientific principles, you would not use such an argument. This approach, and your repeated ad hominem attacks make a scientific discussion difficult.

                Let's go back your original comment that I responded to:

                you shouldn't be scared

                Your stomach is full of strong acid which does and will rapidly degrade any dna you might in[g]est

                I have presented you with multiple examples of how your premise is wrong, and you accuse me of "anti-science"; apparently because my examples contradict your belief. Sorry, but that's not how science works. You thump your chest and claim that as a chemist, you know your facts. You rattle off a bunch of chemistry words to bolster your standing. And you call me arrogant. Sorry, but I really don't give a hoot how many diplomas might hang on your wall. When you make pronouncements based on an incorrect premise, I am not convinced. "Believe me, I'm an expert" has no place in science.

                I appreciate your willingness to consider "conceding the point" here. It is, in fact, the only point I have attempted to make. What you perceive as dishonest is apparently speculation on your part that I have even attempted to make a further point. I have not. I have no agenda regarding GMOs. I know that my food might be from GMO based plants and the meats I eat are from animals that have likely been fed on GMO based plants. There are other issues that are more immediately pressing to me.

                But, the reference you provided did lead me to more reading. Regarding "a single study":

                Foreign (M13) DNA ingested by mice reaches peripheral leukocytes, spleen, and liver via the intestinal wall mucosa and can be covalently linked to mouse DNA.
                Schubbert R, Renz D, Schmitz B, Doerfler W.

                Institut für Genetik, Universität zu Köln, Cologne, Germany.

                Food-ingested foreign DNA is not completely degraded in the gastrointestinal tract of mice. Phage M13mp18 DNA as a test molecule devoid of homology to mouse DNA was pipette-fed to or added to the food supply of mice. The fate of this foreign DNA in the animals was followed by several methods. In 84 animals, fragments of M13mp18 DNA were detected in the contents of the small intestine, the cecum (until 18 h), the large intestine, or the feces. In 254 animals, M13mp18 DNA fragments of up to 976 bp were found in blood 2-8 h after feeding. In buffer-fed control animals, M13mp18 DNA could not be detected. M13mp18 DNA fragments were traced by PCR in peripheral leukocytes and located by fluorescent in situ hybridization in about 1 of 1000 white cells between 2 and 8 h, and in spleen or liver cells up to 24 h after feeding, but not later. M13mp18 DNA could be traced by fluorescent in situ hybridization in the columnar epithelial cells, in the leukocytes in Peyer's patches of the cecum wall, in liver cells, and in B cells, T cells, and macrophages from spleen. These findings suggest transport of foreign DNA through the intestinal wall and Peyer's patches to peripheral blood leukocytes and into several organs. Upon extended feeding, M13mp18 DNA could be recloned from total spleen DNA into a lambda vector. Among about 2.5 x 10(7) lambda plaques, one plaque was isolated that contained a 1299 nucleotide pair fragment (nt 4736-6034) of sequence-identified M13mp18 DNA. This fragment was covalently linked to an 80 nt DNA segment with 70% homology to the mouse IgE receptor gene. The DNA from another lambda plaque also contained mouse DNA, bacterial DNA, and rearranged lambda DNA. Two additional plaques contained M13mp18 DNA fragments of at least 641 (nt 2660-3300) or 794 (nt 4640-5433) nucleotide pairs. The medical and evolutionary implications of these observations may be considerable.

                This is at least one study that apparently shows that not only did the modified DNA transfer into a mouse by ingestion, but the DNA was re-cloned from the spleen of that mouse. Scary? I don't know. But it suggests concern is warranted.

                You should read the paper you referenced: GMO_Myths_and_Truths_1.3b.pdf. I was far less concerned about GMOs before I read it.

                If nothing else has been accomplished by our exchange, you have heightened my awareness on this issue and elevated my level of concern.

                "Jesus don't like killing, no matter what the reasons for." - John Prine

                by JoeEngineer on Sat Sep 14, 2013 at 05:13:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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