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View Diary: Defensive Gun Use (Part I) - The CDC Report on Gun Violence (57 comments)

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  •  I don't think that gun (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Joy of Fishes

    control advocates are quite so motivated by personal safety.

    I'm a gun control advocate, and I imagine myself completely immune to gun violence. So my concern isn't for myself at all. This probably also explains why my advocacy is merely notional; gun control is very much not my issue.

    And I imagine it explains why there tends to be more passion on the enthusiast then the advocate side: more investment in personal safety. (Now I also wonder if those advocates who are very passionate actually do feel a personal stake.)

    I'm not sure if DGU actually matters that much, though. It's possible to argue both that:

    1) While defensive gun use saves a million people a year, gun control laws will save even more, or
    2) While defensive gun use doesn't save a single life, gun control laws will actually cause more lives to be lost.

    I'm not sure this is an argument that is susceptible to logic.

    If I feel that my gun is protecting my kid, I'd rather shoot you than let you take it away.
    If I feel that your gun is a danger to my kid, I'd rather shoot you than let you keep it.

    Hard to argue with those feelings, whatever the statistics say.

    "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

    by GussieFN on Tue Sep 17, 2013 at 01:37:58 PM PDT

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    •  There is a large middle ground (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GussieFN, Joy of Fishes

      Where the stance is,

      I have no problem with you having a gun, with conditions.

      As long as you have been trained to use it safely, and
      you practice good habits, and
      as long as your kid can't find your gun, and
      as long as you take reasonable means to secure it against loss and theft, and
      as long as I never have to see you parading around with it in public..

      etc.

      The middle ground wants people like the Navy Yard shooter to lose their RKBA the first time they use their gun in anger.

      The middle ground wants people like the Navy Yard shooter to face sanctions the first time they shoot through their floor.

      Currently lax enforcement of negligent discharge laws is a problem. Better enforcement is only part of what is needed to prevent people like the Navy Yard shooter from getting their hands on guns.

      Likewise we need better enforcement of public carry laws. There are far too many "I forgot I had my gun in my bag" incidents where the gun owner faces no sanctions. People who are that careless or inattentive are NOT good candidates for carrying a gun in public. (Concealed Carry permits).

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Tue Sep 17, 2013 at 02:00:14 PM PDT

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      •  Yeah, but you're talking logically. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener, Joy of Fishes

        "Gussie, a glutton for punishment, stared at himself in the mirror."

        by GussieFN on Tue Sep 17, 2013 at 02:25:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The low hanging fruit in the middle ground (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Joy of Fishes, JayFromPA, buddabelly

          is to allocate funding for better enforcement and for each of us to demand better local enforcement of existing law.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Tue Sep 17, 2013 at 02:35:15 PM PDT

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          •  Spoken like an RKBA group member. eom. (3+ / 0-)
            •  Ahem* (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Joy of Fishes

              Spoken like a member of Firearms Law and Policy Group

              =)

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Tue Sep 17, 2013 at 05:06:44 PM PDT

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              •  Err, no. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joy of Fishes

                There's "prior art" from RKBA group members about the easiest thing that would have the most immediate impact would be funding for the states to better enforce the Prohibited Persons list, which would be better enforcement of existing law.

                This prior art was in context to Cho, the guy who did the virginia tech shooting. He was adjudicated mentally ill. The prohibited persons list was not enforced, as gaps in the law allowed him to slip through.

                This prior art relates to an ongoing problem where Texas is more gun-responsible than Massachusetts BY FAR. Texas has banned hundreds of thousands of people from buying a gun while Mass has banned ZERO people. This NICS reporting matters because someone who is reported as mentally ill by texas cannot move to some other state and escape the prohibition, the NICS list is nation wide. And yet, Massachusetts has not prohibited anyone.

                So yeah, your words about better enforcement of existing law is an old old suggestion that has been put forth by many of the RKBA group for a LONG time now.

                Any claim to uniqueness of the suggestion on your part is merely a matter of exact wording. I'm pretty sure that the RKBA Founder has also used the "low hanging fruit" element as well.

                So I stand by what I said. You spoke like a RKBA group member.

                •  Credit goes where credit is due. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LilithGardener

                  I'd like to know more about RKBA's list of low hanging fruit.   Would you - or someone in RKBA - expand on this in a diary or point me to a diary that you recommend reading?

                •  I'm glad there is a point of agreement (0+ / 0-)

                  I grew up with guns and have held this view about lax enforcement long before I became politically active.

                  You may think the idea originated with the RKBA group at Daily Kos but I can assure you that like the RKBA acronym, the calla for better enforcement of existing law have been around for a very long time, long before Daily Kos existed.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Wed Sep 18, 2013 at 05:54:37 AM PDT

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                  •  PS - I'm sure the idea did not originate with me! (0+ / 0-)

                    It's an old idea.

                    I join with RKBA group members who agree on this point, and urge all our readers to find specific examples locally and lobby our city councils and state reps to fund and demand better local enforcement of existing laws.

                    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                    by LilithGardener on Wed Sep 18, 2013 at 06:05:38 AM PDT

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          •  It's a beginning, then I want to see some (3+ / 0-)

            actual dollars dumped into mental health care for all and one thing I think should be done is felon restrictions changed to violent felon restrictions. Just this switch would re-enfranchise the millions who have relatively minor drug or other non-violent felonies who are civil rights disabled with no reasonable facts to show why. At the same time it would free up enormous dollars to tackle the other underlying causes of violence as well as monitor the proven violent close enough like in the Hartford Conn. action which showed a lot of success in  comparison to other methods.

            The single most identifiable precursor to someone using a gun in a crime is if they have used a gun before and got away with it.

            At the same time all restrictions on voting by felons should be immediately repealed.  There is no defensible position that felons should be disallowed from voting after incarceration is done.

            Also one thing that could be done immediately but Congress will not due to fear of being called "weak on crime" and that's to fund the process for rights reinstatement at the federal level....The process is there, the laws are there yet Congress absolutely refuses to fund the process.....

            That in itself is why people refuse to allow flawed systems like the "terrorist watch list" to be a determiner of whether you have the right to self defense or not. If there's no way to fix a problem that occurs, then why would anyone sign on to the program?

            Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
            I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
            Emiliano Zapata

            by buddabelly on Tue Sep 17, 2013 at 05:52:54 PM PDT

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            •  Very good points, buddabelly. nt (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buddabelly
            •  This is very important (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              buddabelly, Joy of Fishes

              The Navy Yard shooter could have been sanctioned at least twice before; the first time he used a gun in anger and shot out someone's tires, and the second time, when he shot through his floor. A claim of "I was cleaning my gun" must be dismissed as the absurd lie it usually is. It's a gross failure of law enforcement/DA's office/juries that they accept such drivel in place of investigation and prosecution.

              The single most identifiable precursor to someone using a gun in a crime is if they have used a gun before and got away with it.
              Agree with your other points too. There needs to be a separation -it's the violence that matters most and non-violent felony convictions are often not predictive of violence.

              There needs to be an adjudication process to a) correct errors in the NICS system and b) to restore rights after "rehabilitation."

              I never understood why felons are stripped of voting rights. Their residence in a district is counted for some purposes but they are not allowed to vote on any issues that matter to them.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Wed Sep 18, 2013 at 06:02:51 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  even if we accept the negligent discharge as just (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Joy of Fishes

                that, not accidental, imo there are 3 types of discharge, intentional, negligent and mechanical failure.  There's no excuse for # 2 but I don't see it as felony material.  Intentionally firing into the air? Yes, that should be disqualifying at least for a time and here it's a Felony with decent time and rights revocation.

                The shooting of the tires out is inexcusable period and should have resulted in jail time minimum and again rights revocation.  And the laws exist now to have done just that.  For some reason, this guy never actually faced consequences, he kept his clearance, he could still buy guns legally, that's a huge problem imo....

                And yes, until congress actually funds the rights restoration process, every additional restriction will be fought tooth and nail because there's no way out of the problem.  They admit the Terrorist watch list is full of false positives yet our party fought like hell to take a completely unreliable database and use it to restrict a civil right with no recourse.....That kind of stuff loses us elections and I'll say it yet again,


                Republicans in power cause way more damage and death than all the guns in the country combined do.......

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Wed Sep 18, 2013 at 10:57:09 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm sympathetic re your point about (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Joy of Fishes

                  the Terrorist watch list, and the problem of no mechanism for appeal/correction of errors in the NICS. What do you (or the RKBA group) propose we do to advocate for correcting that problem?

                  I disagree with the meme "Don't talk about guns, or we will pay at the polls" and think it is headed for the dustbin of American political history.

                  The Navy Yard shooter is our new poster boy for some pretty large gaps in our laws.

                  I favor a gun licensing scheme that would include "points" for minor infractions of gun laws, such as "forgetting" you have a loaded gun when you're boarding a plane or going into a courthouse, or any other place where guns are prohibited.

                  That would take care of the occasional mistake with a simple fine. Repeated mistakes would face higher fines with eventual loss of RKBA and remedial training for restoration of rights.

                  On language: I prefer unintentional rather than accidental, and think that all unintentional shootings should face significant sanctions, but not necessarily involve jail time.

                  Licensing would allow for a graded sanction system that removes guns from the hands and homes or people who are too stupid, careless, or angry to possess and use them safely.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Wed Sep 18, 2013 at 12:42:45 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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