Skip to main content

View Diary: GunFAIL XXXVI (110 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  kids aged 3,3,3,3,5,5,5,8,10,11,14,&16 (13+ / 0-)

    Thank you for keeping up the GunFAIL series, David.

    •  more 3-yr-olds than any other age. (5+ / 0-)

      What's wrong with those kids? Can't they be more responsible? Maybe they should get some 4-year-olds to keep their guns for them.

    •  Firearm accidents rank below (0+ / 0-)

      1) Motor vehicle 8.1 per 100,000
      2) Suffication/strangulation 1.5
      3) Drowning 1.3
      4) Poisoning 1.2
      5) Fire/burn 0.7
      And at a rate of less than a third of #5.....
      6) Firearms 0.2

      Link

      Just for clarities sake that means:
      32 times more children die from a motor vehicle accident.
      Seven times more children die from strangulation.
      Six times more children die from drowning
      Six times more children die from poisoning
      Three times more children die from fire, than by a 'GunFAIL'

      Odd we don't see 'CarFAIL', 'RopeFAIL', 'WaterFAIL', 'AsprinFAIL', or 'LighterFAIL' diaries.

      It almost seems like the political viewpoint is the motive as opposed to concern for the well being of children.

      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

      by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 12:14:14 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Correction: (0+ / 0-)

        Forty times more children die in motor vehicle accidents.

        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

        by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 12:16:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  One other thing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          greenearth

          Go fuck yourself, Frank!

          +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

          by cybersaur on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 12:30:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm afraid I've never done that before. (0+ / 0-)

            In order to learn how, I will simply take note of what the party did to itself after they listened to your viewpoint.

            Great job with that, by the way.

            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

            by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 05:45:27 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Personal attacks are not necessary (0+ / 0-)

            and rather dangerous, given the new DK rules.

            Just sayin' . . .

            And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

            by Pale Jenova on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 07:30:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Cars have to be licensed, do they not? --nt (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero

          And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

          by Pale Jenova on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 07:28:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Only if they are driven on public roads..... (0+ / 0-)

            and they are still responsible for forty times more accidental deaths of children than firearms.

            Why isn't there a (or more appropriately, forty) 'CarFAIL' diaries?

            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

            by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 07:55:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think you both mean ... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero, Pale Jenova

              ... "registered". A vehicle operator has to be licensed regardless of where the vehicle is being driven (with certain exceptions like youths being allowed to operate tractors on their parents' farms, of course).

              In lieu of firearm registration, would you find a similar policy of training, testing and licensing firearms owners prior to any purchase of a firearm to be acceptable?

              BTW, as noted last week, the proper metric for comparing car and gun death rates isn't the total amount of deaths. When you set the amount of accidental deaths of children by car and by firearm against the amount of owners of both devices, the difference becomes narrower. Car ownership is widespread and almost ubiquitous; gun ownership not so much. Also, a typical gun owner can own a lot more guns than a typical car owner. And every single one is an opportunity for something to go wrong ...

              •  "Proper metric"? Very well. Have it your way. (0+ / 0-)

                40% of US households have a firearm.
                Assuming 100% of US households have a vehicle, that means that rate of children's death by accident with vehicle is 16 times higher than that for firearms.

                But later on you claim:
                 "own a lot more guns than a typical car owner. And every single one is an opportunity for something to go wrong"
                By the same token 'every single one' of vehicles is an 'opportunity for something to go wrong'.
                Estimations for guns & vehicles is essentially equal.
                Using this metric, we are back to 40 times more accidental deaths by vehicle than by firearm.

                Don't you find it curious that the areas with higher gun ownership is also the areas that are more against gun bans and gun control?
                If guns were such 'death machines' wouldn't that number be opposite?

                Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 08:32:03 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Gun ownership numbers are also skewed by ... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  coquiero

                  ... not being able to account for illegally owned or possessed guns. Because we have registration, we can account for most of the legally-owned cars.

                  And frankly (ahem), focusing on rates in this discussion is still beside the point. We tolerate a higher amount of vehicle-related or pool-related deaths because we have required safety measures. The lower proportion of accidental deaths of children from guns then cars (which I'll accept arguendo here) could be a lot lower, which one would think would help your case, if we adopted the sort of safety measures I always talk about in these comment threads, which do not focus on the sale or possession of certain types of firearms but rather how a gun is possessed or handled.

                  For instance, we should first and foremost write Potter's First Law into the statutes: "Any person handling a loaded firearm is presumed to be reasonably aware that the firearm is loaded." I bet within a year or two we'd have a lot less of these to chew over every week. And people would take guns a lot more seriously. If a few less people decide they want to have guns because they can't handle the responsibility ... well, isn't that better off for all of us? The point is not to take people's guns away; it's to make them stop treating them like toys. You can say what you want to say, but they're "death machines" even if they kill no one. If Lynyrd Skynyrd knew this:

                  Handguns are made for killin'
                  Ain't no good for nothin' else ...
                  ... it shouldn't be that hard for anyone else to grasp (although nevertheless gun-safety instructors emphasize it). To downplay this in hopes of securing broader political support for gun-ownership rights is politically irresponsible, and gets you more incidents like the one I mentioned earlier in Michigan as people start buying guns because owning one makes them feel free and empowered.

                  As for geography, I have noticed that the areas with higher gun ownership rates are also disproportionately represented in these incidents. If responsibility came with every gun, wouldn't that number be the opposite?

            •  Still a misleading statistic (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero

              since people spend a hell of a lot more time in their cars than with their guns. (Well, most people, anyway.)

              And the majority of those car deaths involve new drivers. But ignoring that, it doesn't excuse the needless deaths from children getting a hold of guns and accidentally shooting themselves.

              Remember, a responsible gun owner will never appear in a GunFail diary.

              And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

              by Pale Jenova on Wed Sep 25, 2013 at 07:36:21 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No more misleading than the 'GunFAIL' diaries. (0+ / 0-)

                It uses anecdotal stories to create a false sense of risk strictly for political purposes.

                0.2 per 100,000 is extraordinarily rare.
                Accidental death from cars 40 times more common
                From strangulation, 7 times more common.
                From drowning, 6 times more common.
                From poisoning 6 times more common.
                From fire 3 times more common.

                Strange there no diaries highlighting these far, far more common accidental deaths (and calling their deaths 'FAIL').

                Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                by FrankRose on Wed Sep 25, 2013 at 08:20:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Not the purpose of GunFAIL diaries (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  coquiero, a2nite

                  They don't hype up accidental deaths. They expose the stupidity that some people show with guns.

                  Most automobile accidents happen because of alcohol, speeding, bad weather, distracted driving, etc.

                  How many car accidents go down like this? Item 12:

                  officers from the Jemison Police Department along with deputies from the sheriff’s department and an off-duty police officer who lives in the neighborhood found the female and her 3-year-old child suffering from a single gunshot wound after the male, 27, accidentally shot them while cleaning his gun in the family living room.
                  Now, would you ever clean a gun in your family living room without unloading it first?

                  And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

                  by Pale Jenova on Wed Sep 25, 2013 at 06:24:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  How many gun accidents go down like this? (0+ / 0-)
                    Alexander Heit was responding to a text message when he drifted into oncoming traffic, jerked the steering wheel and rolled his car off the road on April 3.
                    Now would you ever drive while texting?

                    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                    by FrankRose on Wed Sep 25, 2013 at 09:34:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

      •  What about firearms homicides? Oh yeah, that's (6+ / 0-)

        like 70% of the total homicides in the country.  Then add all the suicides involving firearms as well.  Bottom line is lots of people are dying due to gun shots.  In fact, yearly firearms deaths are on the verge of surpassing motor vehicle deaths.

        Also, one thing to be aware of is that these GunFAIL incidents are just the tip of the iceberg.  To dismiss GunFAIL incidents as rare or insignificant is missing the central point about how severe the gun problem in America is.  A huge body count continues to mount because we as a country are unable to pass sane gun laws.  We as a country suffer another 9/11 roughly every 5 weeks, thanks to guns (hat tip to DoC on that one).

      •  Apologist for DEAD CHILDREN (5+ / 0-)

        You should cite those statistics at the funerals of the victims.  Guns kill people and you are partially responsible as is every other idiot gun nut in America.

        +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

        by cybersaur on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 12:30:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Gun deaths among children are only second to (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero, WakeUpNeo, Glen The Plumber

          automobile deaths among children (according to Robert Sege, a pediatrician at BU Medical Center).

          [You need to go to minute 56 to get to this segment.]

          He's using the APA accepted definition of children being children until the age of 21 (to which gun "enthusiasts" scream bloody murder because it is very inconvenient).

          In any case, of the over 105,000 shot every year (and counting), child shootings for children under 18, a "mere" 9,100 per year (based on WISQARS average from 2001-2010) - or 25 children are shot every single day. We are told that this is insignificant as "only" children 1,400 die every year (about 4 per day).

          “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

          by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 04:13:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No more than you are responsible for the (0+ / 0-)

          40 times more children from a motor vehicle accident.
          Seven times more children from strangulation.
          Six times more children from drowning
          Six times more children from poisoning
          or Three times more children that die from fire.

          "Guns kill people"
          Strange. I am surrounded by people whom own guns & not only is there no 'killed people' and there is also not such hysterical & irrational fear of guns.
          You should get out more.

          "idiot gun nut in America"
          I'm afraid that what you call 'idiot gun nut in America', is also refereed to as 'majority of Americans'.
          You better start with such hysterical hatred of Democracy; because so long as free elections exist, I'm afraid that you are shit out of luck......unfortunately, so is the party.......as you have already managed to prove in an election off-year.

          On Nov 5, 2014, I will have to fix the goddamn mess you have created.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 05:56:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Cars, cords/rope, asprin/medicine, water, (6+ / 0-)

        and electricity.  All useful and necessary for modern life.  All have many uses and applications.

        Not so for guns.  They were invented and created for one reason and one reason only.

        To kill.

        I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

        by coquiero on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 12:48:41 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Yup, pretty much all the children that die from (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero, WakeUpNeo, Daniel Case

          automobile accidents were benefiting from the use of a vehicle (e.g. to get to school or for the parents to work/buy food and bring it home), I would like to know how many of the 9,100 plus children under 18 that are shot each year (or the 1,440 that die every year) got any benefit from these firearms? (at least before these ended their lives)

          “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

          by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 04:17:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  BTW, sorry I can't rec your comments (or those (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          coquiero

          of others). I am not being rude, I'm on a timeout from giving comment ratings until tomorrow (I think).

          “In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it … we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

          by DefendOurConstitution on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 04:42:53 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not necessary at all. (0+ / 0-)

          Not cars, not cords/rope, not aspirin/medicine, not pools/tubs.

          And who are you to decide what is 'useful'?

          Let's just be honest.
          The real issue is that these are all examples of things that you use.
          And as far as 'conuiero' is concerned, if she doesn't use it, it is perfectly justifiable to take it away from somebody else, even including parts of the Bill of Rights, even including the well-being of the party.

          I'm certain that this 'insightful' viewpoint will get every bit as much respect & thanks as it deserves from the people, from this nation & from the Democratic party as it deserves in 2014.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 06:07:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  So you are choosing to be obtuse (0+ / 0-)

            rather than concede the point.

            Shows how strong your arguments are.

            I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

            by coquiero on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 06:13:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  What exactly am I being 'obtuse' about? (0+ / 0-)

              And when it comes to 'strength of argument', just look to Colorado.

              Historically unprecedented, Democratic district, district that voted for Obama by 19 points, & $3,500,000 couldn't even save your loser of an argument.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 06:20:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So is that your "go to" response to everything? (0+ / 0-)

                "hmmmm...I have no argument, everyone keeps shooting everything I say down, what kind of a comeback can I use?  Oh, I know!  COLORADO!"

                As to your obtuseness, go ahead an poll 100 people on the usefulness of things like cars, water and medicine, we'll see how many people consider these things useful in their everyday life.  Yet you can't even admit that.

                Guns were conceived and designed to kill.  All those other things were not.

                Look, Colorado!

                I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                by coquiero on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 06:41:40 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  Personally I'd like to see a diary called (7+ / 0-)

        FrankFAIL.

        We could list all your nonsensical, spammy and/or debunked comments, and catchphrases.

        Starting with The Liberties of Innocent Americans!!!!

        I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

        by coquiero on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 12:51:28 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Hey FrankRose - Please check your spellingFAIL... (0+ / 0-)

        Aspirin

        Take two and call in the morning of you don't feel better.

      •  Frank, no one wants to see kids ... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        WakeUpNeo, Glen The Plumber

        ... dying from MV accidents, strangulation, drowning, poisoning, fire, or firearms.  It seems likely that most of these tragedies are preventable.  Is it not the obligation of all of us to keep children as safe as possible?  

        The particular topic of the diary is firearms and the topic of my comment is children's deaths from firearms.  I would love to see a diary specifically addressing gun safety for youngsters, but I do not have the expertise to do this myself.  You surely do.  Please think about it.

        •  It certainly is our obligation. (0+ / 0-)

          Thus, I am certain that next week we will see....
          40 CarFAIL diaries...
          6 PoisonFAIL diaries.....
          7 'RopeFAIL' diaries....
          6 'TubFAIL' diaries ....
          3 FireFAIL diaries.....

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 06:37:43 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I think we would ... (0+ / 0-)

            ... if, for example, having poison was a constitutional right and an organization run by poison manufacturers was pushing for more people having poison while also pushing for fewer controls over the poison.  

            •  In that case we should be seeing 46 more 'FAIL' (0+ / 0-)

              diaries.
              6 PoisionFAIL (pharmaceutical industry) and
              40 GunFAIL (auto industry)

              The fact is that children's fatalities by accidental or negligent discharge per year is extremely low. (0.2 per 100,000)
              When cars, bathtubs, rope and fire accounts for 40 times, 6 times, 6 times & 3 times the death rate respectively, it's not hard to conclude that these diaries are written strictly for political purposes.

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Wed Sep 25, 2013 at 06:42:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  We've said it before and we'll say it again ... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coquiero

        When was the last time someone killed their neighbor's kid washing their car? Or cleaning their pool?

        And the toll of gun mishandling is about more than the deaths. It's about the injuries, about the property damage (ask your local body shop owner just how much it is to fix one bullet hole in a vehicle, much less a couple ... and no, your car insurance usually will not cover that).

        •  When was the last time someone killed (0+ / 0-)

          a kid by driving a gun?
          Or taking a bath in a gun?

          The actual rates of accidental death are still factual & still linked above.
          Absurd questions don't change that.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 06:16:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's not an absurd question ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coquiero

            ... if you understand the point. People have been killed because their neighbors were dumb enough to clean guns without fully making sure they were unloaded.

            You have to be in or near a car to be killed by it. You have to be in a pool to drown. But you can be killed by someone's negligent discharge next door. Or by people target-shooting as far away as a half-mile (that actually happened to a woman in Washington State over Father's Day weekend)

            Guns can cause collateral damage in ways no other easily-accessible way of accidentally killing yourself cannot, to people who had no warning whatsoever. You can reduce your risk of death in a swimming pool by not having one. You can reduce your risk of dying in a car crash by not driving, and following common safety guidelines as a pedestrian. And in those cases it is sometimes possible to intervene while the tragedy is happening.

            You can reduce your risk of an accidental gun death by not owning one, true, but if your reckless neighbor does there is nothing you can do about it, and no warning. You could be sitting in your easy chair, watching your favorite TV show, and all of a sudden there's a loud crack and it's mmm whatcha say?

      •  Cherrypicking your statistics (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coquiero

        You did notice the suicide by firearm (0.8 per 100k) and homicide by firearm (2.7 per 100k).

        I can make a lot of things look much better by leaving out 94.5% of the instances.

        Thank you for posting the statistics.

        And God said, "Let there be light"; and with a Big Bang, there was light. And God said "Ow! Ow My eyes!" and in a flash God separated light from darkness. "Whew! Now that's better. Now where was I. Oh yea . . ."

        by Pale Jenova on Tue Sep 24, 2013 at 07:23:55 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site