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View Diary: Defensive Gun Use (Part II) - You Decide (186 comments)

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  •  If you have Castle Doctrine. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    exlrrp, happy camper

    There are other places, like work, where I would not retreat.

    •  Why wouldn't you retreat at work? (7+ / 0-)

      At home, presumably, you could be defending your kids, etc, so you would have to confront the danger right then and there. At work, there is no such concern. Why wouldn't you run into a different room?

      •  This is the nut, the most important thing to do (9+ / 0-)

        in any unfolding situation is to take cover and place a locked door in between you and the aggressor if possible.
        Meanwhile you are on the phone calling 911, calling security, etc.

        But taking cover is the first rule. And usually taking cover involves retreat of some kind.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 11:47:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So my coworkers are not worthy of defense? nt (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happy camper
        •  Maybe they'd prefer law enforcement defend them.. (5+ / 0-)

          you know.... the people we hire and entrust to protect us in situations like that...

          Baby, where I come from...

          by ThatSinger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 11:58:45 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I'm curious, (8+ / 0-)

          you present yourself as the potential protector of your coworkers in the case of an armed attack.  

          Is this a position that you have simply arrogated to yourself, or have you actually garnered the explicit consent for your role as leading defender?

          I wonder, because I myself would be very surprised if I had a coworker who unbeknownst to me assumed he was my armed "protector" without me being aware.

          "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

          by Calvino Partigiani on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 12:05:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Cue the Crickets... n/t (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener, JVolvo

            Baby, where I come from...

            by ThatSinger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 12:12:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  GZ was the self appointed "protector" of the (7+ / 0-)

            neighborhood from "those effing punks", the ones that he had to chase, "those assholes always get away." Made me wonder how many times he had followed someone and they had run away from him.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 12:12:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  The CEO of the company knows and approves. nt (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tom Seaview, happy camper
            •  Wow. I'll take that as a 'no'. (7+ / 0-)

              And you justify delegating yourself 'protector' of your coworkers by simply bypassing their consent in favor of getting the boss's approval.  

              "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

              by Calvino Partigiani on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 12:41:17 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not the leading defender. This isn't (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tom Seaview, happy camper

                a position I've taken that says "I WILL DEFEND THE COMPANY!!!"

                I simply state that I don't think I could stand by and retreat while my coworkers are getting shot at. And I'm getting ridiculed for this? Seriously? But hey, I bet if I didn't have a firearm, it'd be considered noble right?

                •  If any coworker asked me, (7+ / 0-)

                  "Hey, I'm carrying a gun, and if our office is attacked I plan to defend you" I would say thanks but no thanks, I do not want your "protection".  Many others, you certainly know, would as well.

                  But from your hubris you deny your coworkers the simple decency of asking for their consent to your self-appointed role as their armed defender.

                  If you're doing it for your coworkers, why don't you just ask them if they want you to ever do that for them?

                  "Trust me... I've been right before." ~ Tea party patriot

                  by Calvino Partigiani on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 12:50:59 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You could always refocus (7+ / 0-)

                  on the examples given in the diary, instead of making an example of yourself. The examples are there to illustrate possible value judgments without making any of it personal for anyone posting.  

                  If, instead, you want this thread to focus on your personal choices then you'll continue to insert details of your life. You took the thread in a very personal direction from this very neutral initial comment, http://www.dailykos.com/....

                  I suggest that if it's getting too personal, we should drop this sub-thread to refocus on the examples that are not personal for anyone posting.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 12:56:50 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  o_0 Too personal? (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    happy camper, Tom Seaview

                    I have no problem getting personal (while remaining at least semi-anonymous anyway) but I find it interesting that I'm getting ridiculed for stating that I couldn't stand by and watch my coworkers get shot at.

                    •  Your getting ridiculed for your "office hero"... (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Johnny Nucleo, TFinSF, Sandino, JVolvo

                      hallucination...

                      Baby, where I come from...

                      by ThatSinger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 01:18:36 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You know, I guess I should say LG is right. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Kasoru, Tom Seaview

                        I am getting a bit heated and will bow out for a bit. I'm going to blame that on myself to a certain extent. I'm not communicating my ideas as well as I can so this office hero bullshit that you're getting is my fault.

                        I will read the rest of the comments and be done for a while. Though I might comment on a couple of the other ones that are [new] on this page right now, I won't be back otherwise until tomorrow.

                      •  Naw, that's entirely YOUR invention. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Tom Seaview

                        Your hate-mail will be graded.

                        by PavePusher on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 06:16:30 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  MY invention? (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Sandino, JVolvo

                          Did I invent write this?

                          So my coworkers are not worthy of defense? nt (1+ / 0-)
                          Share Our Wealth -10, -7.23
                          by KVoimakas on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 11:50:54 AM PDT
                          How about this?
                          and I'd like to point out that in the defense of myself, I'd be defending others. This isn't some guard position or security or something along those lines.
                          Share Our Wealth -10, -7.23
                          by KVoimakas on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 01:45:57 PM PDT
                          Nice try though...

                          Baby, where I come from...

                          by ThatSinger on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 06:47:31 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  None of that looks like "office hero" to me. (0+ / 0-)

                            Maybe your glasses need renewal?

                            Your hate-mail will be graded.

                            by PavePusher on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 09:08:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I had LASIK surgery… (0+ / 0-)

                            And see quite well now, thank you…  In this instance I see a Wanabee hero…

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 06:23:57 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You see what you want to see. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north, not4morewars

                            Blinders do that.

                            Your hate-mail will be graded.

                            by PavePusher on Fri Sep 20, 2013 at 07:45:39 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Rather funny coming from you… (0+ / 0-)

                            Considering you completely ignored two quotes that I provided for you where he specifically used the word "defend" in reference to his co-workers ...

                            "Blinders" indeed…

                            To be specific, is it your position that he in no way shape or form intended to convey that he was thinking of himself as a "defender" of his co-workers? Yes or no…

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 11:57:26 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "defend" = "office hero"? (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north, not4morewars, gerrilea

                            Did you put wheels on those goal-posts, or do you just drag them on your shoulder like a cross?

                            Your hate-mail will be graded.

                            by PavePusher on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 01:40:05 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh, so you're arguing semantics... (0+ / 0-)

                            rather than answering my question... neat trick...

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 03:03:13 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're the one who distorted the semantics... (0+ / 0-)

                            in the first place.  We've been trying to drag you back on track.  Words have meanings.  You are trying to insinuate that he used words and meanings not in evidence.

                            Have a really great night!

                            Your hate-mail will be graded.

                            by PavePusher on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 10:12:26 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ThatSinger, let me see if I understand you: (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DavidMS, not4morewars, gerrilea

                            Unarmed Hero:
                            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...

                            CCW permit-carrying Shithead:
                            http://www.kgw.com/...

                            Am I seeing this correctly?  Anyone facing an armed opponent, while also being armed, is automatically a fucktard of the first order.

                            Are we now, on the same page?  
                            Enquiring Minds Want to Know.

                            The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

                            by 43north on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 02:06:29 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HR for using "'tard" as a putdown... (0+ / 0-)

                            auotmatic... every time...

                            Sorry...

                            As for your attempted "point", not quite sure how it's analogous with kvoimakas' designating himself defender of the workplace with neither his co-workers' knowledge or consent, much less their request...

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 02:59:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Remover your abusive HR. You are not allowed to (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, ER Doc

                            HR someone you're in a conversation with.

                            Whom what the "tard" in reference to here?

                            No one, he didn't call you or KV that.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 04:19:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I absolutely HR any iteration of 'tard... (0+ / 0-)

                            automatically and without exception... like this:

                            Anyone facing an armed opponent, while also being armed, is automatically a fucktard of the first order.
                            I have been backed up by admins on this point... take it up with them if you choose... I have no intention of removing it absent a sincere apology and acknowledgement from the poster that use of "tard" as a putdown is completely unacceptable on this site...

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 04:59:44 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You uprated 'tard... (0+ / 0-)

                            Seriously?

                            You find it acceptable to use that term as a putdown, to imply that mental disabilities or learning disorders are acceptable terms for describing stupidity or mental incompetence? You think it reflects well on this community?

                            Seriously?

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 05:05:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What I think you're attempting to do here is (0+ / 0-)

                            play a game of semantics and not discuss the very real issues we all must face.

                            I accept that's your agenda and rarely to I engage you on any issue because of what I perceive and have experienced when interacting with you.

                            stu·pid·i·ty
                            st(y)o͞oˈpiditē/
                            noun
                            noun: stupidity; plural noun: stupidities

                                1.  behavior that shows a lack of good sense or judgment.

                            Stupidity does not equal mental incompetence, mental defects or learning disabilities.
                            Mental Incompetence Law & Legal Definition

                            Mental incompetence is the inability of a person to make or carry out important decisions regarding his or her affairs. An individual is defined as mentally incompetent if h/she is manifestly psychotic or otherwise of unsound mind, either consistently or sporadically, by reason of mental defect. Few examples of such mental defect are retardation, schizophrenia, and dementia.

                            Words have meanings, you are mistaken when you conflate these two words.  Then you blame others for not making the same mistake.

                            How any of what 43North said reflects badly on DK is a bit of a mystery to me.

                            Please provide links or copies of what the Admins position on the use of this word "tard" is.

                            It seems clear you have also labeled others whom may protect the lives of co-workers as having a mental disability or learning disability.  You are the one engaged in bringing down the level of discourse on this site and attempting to justify your position as legitimate.

                            Calling or implying that KV now has a mental disability or learning disorder IS HR'able by our site standards.  Maybe that's why 43N asked you to clarify your position.

                            You've engaged in a red herring and strawman and have not answered his question.

                            Do you believe someone whom may save the life of a co-worker, "without their knowledge or permission" equals some mental incapacity including a learning disorder or mental defect? Or do you believe they have no "common sense" on this issue.  Or do you believe they have no right to help others?

                            Then I'd inquire as to what you believe good "common sense" is in a life threatening situation?  Throughout my entire life, I've defended the underdog, the helpless and needy.  I've interjected myself into situations that I saw "getting out of hand" and have diffused them, to help protect all involved.

                            Will you engage in an honest discussion with us on this issue or will you continue to feign outrage over a word not used in the way you claimed it was?

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sun Sep 22, 2013 at 12:03:35 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Gerri - I did look-up ThatSinger's comment (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ThatSinger, ER Doc

                            history for the past couple of years, and the consistent of HR-ing "tard" has been evident.  

                            So, I'll ask that you not call this abusive - as it's a position ThatSinger has staked-out previously, and been consistently vocal about.

                            The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

                            by 43north on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 05:40:52 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Thank you for understanding… (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north

                            And to complete the circle I'll remove my HR…

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 09:11:47 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Were you calling anyone at DK a "tard"? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north

                            No.  

                            This poster doesn't like the word, I don't like many words, especially when they are used in a manner to attack another.  

                            Did you do so?

                            No.

                            You did describe his position accurately, you didn't attack him or anyone else.

                            There is a huge difference here.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 11:28:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Our site policy has never allowed someone (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north

                            to HR another they are in a conversation with.

                            And as you've now explained, he has a history of being against the word "tard", sobeit, it doesn't change the fact he has no right to HR you while in a conversation with you...  

                            http://www.dkosopedia.com/...

                            2. Do not troll rate someone you are actively having a fight with. If you are in a heated argument with someone, you should not be judging whether or not what they say is trollworthy. Leave it to others to decide what behavior is or isn't over the line.

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Sun Sep 22, 2013 at 12:14:02 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good news is, the price of Magic Hat #9 (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea

                            did not increase over his now removed HR.

                            We'll call this one a draw, as we only began a "heated argument" upon my use of that word.

                            The repeated use of which, did get a user banned a couple of years ago.  Admittedly he was trolling, and trying to say /snark to cover his ass.  Didn't work.

                            The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

                            by 43north on Sun Sep 22, 2013 at 03:00:31 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So your "only" issue (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ER Doc

                            is with KV's workplace being informed at managerial/ownership levels, not ratified by the Workers Collective.

                            I'll be certain to kosmail you, upon every use of "that word" again.

                            Your 5 hides per day will be well spent.

                            Definition and use of said word, as widely held in IT discourse, and in my experience in other online forums:
                            http://www.urbandictionary.com/...

                            The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

                            by 43north on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 05:16:19 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If that's how you choose to present yourself... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north

                            Then so be it…

                            It's well-established in this forum that certain terms are unacceptable for use in terms of putdowns… Implying that Ann Coulter  is a man for example… Insulting transgendered people in a misguided attempt to insult her... You're insulting mentally disabled people in the same manner… Who gives a fuck what the "Urban dictionary" says? You know what it means and you know what the intent is…. 'tard is short for "retard"... And it's unacceptable... period...

                             Like I said take it up with the admin's…

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 05:31:36 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My "issue" is with someone being armed… (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            43north

                            And not allowing those around him the ability to make an informed decision as to whether or not they choose to be present in the same room with said armed individual… Again where in the Second Amendment does it give you or him the right to surreptitiously bear arms?

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 05:35:12 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  10th Amendment - the part which reads: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ER Doc, DavidMS
                            The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people
                            As it's the respective States which regulate the standard for issuance of Concealed Weapon licenses, or permits, and the conditions for legal carry of said firearms.

                            New York for example, has since the passage of the Sullivan  Act, (1911) requiring all such persons so-licensed to conceal that firearm at all times.

                            The Tammany Machine, by controlling the Judges who's sole authority it is to grant permits, also controlled the patronage.
                            Patronage which granted permits to those faithful to the Tammany Hall regime... and no others.

                            The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

                            by 43north on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 05:51:01 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So your answer is "nowhere" in the 2nd Amendment.. (0+ / 0-)

                            that's may answer too!

                            Pretzeling the 10th Amendment was not part of the question though... but thanks...

                            Have a great night!

                            Baby, where I come from...

                            by ThatSinger on Sat Sep 21, 2013 at 06:06:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The Second, only restrains the Feds. (0+ / 0-)

                            It provides the "shall not be infringed".
                            The 10th grants the States, powers not held by the Feds, and that which is retained solely by "the people".
                            The 14th, encumbers the States with equal protection, which means they can't say bar African-Americans from firearms possession, per southern "Black Codes".

                            This neither Federal or State, may prohibit ALL guns from possession.  How they go about this may be via permit, license to carry concealed, or by a firearm owner ID card.  Or for that matter, none at all.  Over the legal age?  Pass a Federal ID check?  Here ya go.

                            Personally?  I'd like to see the same standards as a hunting license, with mandated safety training.

                            The country was in peril; he was jeopardizing his traditional rights of freedom and independence by daring to exercise them.” ~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

                            by 43north on Sun Sep 22, 2013 at 07:01:35 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  It's your choice (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sandino, JVolvo

                      You seem to be complaining that people aren't buying what you are offering. You seem to think people should be grateful to a co-worker asserting protector status with the boss and without informing them.

                      But, hey, that's just the logic of a gun libertarian on display in vivid detail.

                      Employment law is not ambiguous on this. Any employer who wants armed security should hire properly trained people to provide armed security. If an armed coworker screws up the employer's insurance is not going to cover it, because the coworker's small arms have nothing to do with their job, and they will likely be fired and possibly be sued by both their co-workers and their boss.

                      The boss may trust your libertarian judgment, and yes the boss is accepting the liability of your gun, your skills, and any potential errors in your libertarian judgment, or even a simple moment of inattention in the workplace.

                      Me? I'll take Antoinette Tuff over a self-appointed secretly armed co-worker any day.

                      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                      by LilithGardener on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 01:29:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  My employer does not want armed security. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Tom Seaview

                        I would assume that if the company wanted it, we'd have it.

                        But they're also not going to foist some idiotic gun free zone on us either.

                        See this comment for other details.

                        •  So your employer wants something of value (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Johnny Nucleo, Sandino, WakeUpNeo, JVolvo

                          without paying for it?

                          Your employer is taking on a liability without disclosing it it to their insurance company, in order to avoid paying for it?

                          Or is your employer saying yes, because they are afraid that you will sue them, if they say no?

                          Any way I look at it, the values on display are troubling.  

                          You've articulated the libertarian argument in all its glory. It's about the gun owner, the gun owner's individual rights, the gun owner's individual freedoms, and the gun owner's individual judgment about whether/when to protect themselves, whether/when to escalate a situation, the gun owner's planned intent to NOT RETREAT.

                          If all of what you posted is true, both you and your boss actually show considerable contempt for your coworkers in the manner that you assert your RKBA.

                          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                          by LilithGardener on Thu Sep 19, 2013 at 02:20:06 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  It's not a video game, KV. It's live bullets. (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LilithGardener, Sandino, WakeUpNeo, JVolvo

                      I'm not trying to ridicule, but you have to understand how uncomfortable your ideas about this make people.

                      You, yourself might be the most responsible person with a gun on the planet, but you can't assume everyone is going to be as responsible as you are. There are countless examples of this not being the case.

                      The Hollywood ending is probably the least likely outcome - it's more likely a gun is fired at the wrong person, it is fired accidentally, it is lost, stolen, gets in the wrong hands, etc.

                      Most people probably think it's not a good idea to have plain cloths citizens acting as law enforcement. If you don't agree, look at how insurance company actuaries game it out. Your CEO should probably get liability coverage if he is going to allow you to carry and act on your own. My guess is he could not get that coverage because it's too expensive.

                      There are school districts that have had to scuttle plans to arm teachers because they couldn't get the insurance coverage - it was astronomically expensive because the likelyhood of accidental shoots, stolen guns, etc.

            •  And so, you think your company should be the (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LilithGardener, Sandino

              model for the nation? How large is your company? How many people in the office? What is the building like? Does the company have the means to hire security?

              Something tells me you haven't thought this through.

        •  Who deputized you? Seriously. I don't want (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener, Johnny Nucleo, JVolvo

          MY co-worker to pull a gun and start a cross fire firefight:

          1. What if I am sitting next to the co-worker who draws a gun and the shooter takes aim in my direction.

          YOU ARE NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT I DON'T WANT YOUR HELP.

          PERIOD.

        •  Suppose you start firing and you hit a bystander (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo

          coworker?  Suppose you engage the robber in a gun battle, and the robber ends up shooting and hitting bystanders? Suppose you rush out and shoot another gun owner who is looking for the robber?

          The problem with guns is that the moment you pull it out, you are escalating the situation. You are no longer a passive observer or defender. You could turn a terse shouting match into a deadly incidence.

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