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View Diary: UPDATED! - The Democrats' big FAIL in Colorado. (459 comments)

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  •  You need to know more about Colorado. (18+ / 0-)

    Guns are indeed the Number One issue, probably tied with taxes (we're agin 'em), a matter that wasn't on the ballot.

    Abortion?  Three-quarters of the electorate regularly rejects the "fetal personhood" constitutional amendments that appear like clockwork on annual ballots.  

    Death penalty ain't an issue here either.

    Marijuana was approved by public referendum; difficult to see how that would've affected one's vote on Giron one way or another.

    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

    by corvo on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 08:33:37 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Hmm.... (6+ / 0-)

      Death penalty:

      Earlier in the year, Hickenlooper took the highly unpopular step of indefinitely staying the execution of convicted mass murderer Nathan Dunlap, who was to have been put to death this week for gunning down four people in a restaurant in 1993.

      Forty-eight percent of those polled disapprove of how Hickenlooper is handling the death penalty issue, compared to only 27 percent who support it.

      http://dailycaller.com/...

      Abortion - perhaps 3/4s don't agree with personhood but the 1/4 who do are the types to take ANY chance to get someone in office who agrees with the, ie George Rivera:

      PUEBLO, Colo., Sept. 12, 2013 PRNewswire-USNewswire -- Personhood USA successfully drew grassroots voters to the polls yesterday during Colorado's historic recall election. Planned Parenthood-endorsed Senate President Morse and Senator Giron lost their seats as local activists used the democratic process to make their voice heard.
      http://www.prnewswire.com/...

      Marijuana:

      Earlier this afternoon, a room packed with people went absolutely silent when it was made clear that Colorado Springs City Council had voted 5 to 4 to not allow recreational-marijuana stores in the city. "I hope you're happy," yelled one man, breaking the oppressive quiet.

      Despite previously telling the Indy "we have to figure out a way to regulate" recreational marijuana, Councilman Val Snider surprisingly joined four other Councilors in passing an ordinance opting out of the ability to purchase the plant in retail stores.

      http://www.csindy.com/...

      Marijuana:

      Despite the signature of Gov. John Hickenlooper, cities across Colorado are opting out of the state’s historic decision to legalize cannabis.
      http://cannabisnowmagazine.com/...

      I will give you that Pueblo seems to be rolling ahead with legalization, but the issue is certainly not without controversy.

      •  You're avoiding the question entirely. (7+ / 0-)

        How did Giron's stance on any of these issues affect the recall?

        Answer: they did not.  This was a one-issue recall; there's simply no other way to depict it.  In fact, the abject failure of Giron's attempt to change the subject by latching onto abortion rights, the protection of which enjoys bipartisan support in the state, only further demonstrates that fact.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 08:53:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Doesn't matter - the door was open and anyone (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          unfangus, LilithGardener, caul, Aquarius40

          could walk in, and my sense is, they did.

          You're missing the point.

          Was this a recall or was this just an election?

          You didn't have to dislike Giron so much that you wanted her recalled. You very well could have seen an opportunity to further your cause, whatever that may be.

          •  Do give us a break. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gerrilea, ER Doc, Laconic Lib, FrankRose

            For example, the marijuana issue.  A state referendum approved it, and localities have the option of banning the sale of marijuana within their borders.  What does this have to do with the recall of a state senator not involved in that issue? bupkis. And everyone except you knows it.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 09:01:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Is that right? Interesting theory but I'll believe (4+ / 0-)

              what I hear with my own two ears. There are some rabid anti-marijuana folks in Colorado. So much so, they'd take any chance to take out the party that wrote the rules on it and got the ball rolling with medical marijuana that is now flowering into recreational. They are fighting it every way possible.

              Let's take abortion - George Rivera in the Pueblo recall supports personhood. You don't think the anti-abortion crowds saw an opening?

              In any case, my point was to challenge the author - he/she did a great job, but until I see some data and analysis about the issues that drove people to the polls - ie, data that shows WHY people voted - then I think it is an unanswered question and the author could very well be overstating the gun issue.

              The risk of overstating guns is just as much as understating it.

              •  I don't think the gun issue (0+ / 0-)

                can be 'overstated',clearly it was the causus belli for this recall action and generated the majority of visceral response that carried the day for the NRA.However you're absolutely correct to illuminate the peripheral issues that also had a bearing on the temper of the electorate that allowed it to kick 2 very good state senators to the curb for the first time in the history of the State.The issues you discuss are very much on the mind of those easily persuaded to believe their representatives forget about them  once they get to Denver and is a large part of the succession movement going on at the other end of the I-25 corridor at the same time as the recall.Those who dismiss the many shades of voter dissatisfaction for a monochromatic 'gun issue' vote are over simplifying and run the risk of losing more elections as a result.
                This site that promotes 'more and better Democrats' should take this recall to heart because while the complaint is usually that we have to choose between a lesser of two evils or a lousy candidate,it appears this time we clearly needed 'better ' democratic party voters .

                'The tyranny of the ignoramuses is absolute and inescapable' A.Einstein

                •  Better *INFORMED* voters. (5+ / 0-)

                  That was Giron's campaign's fault.

                  Voters are just voters. If you want to alter the critical thinking skills and the level of political involvement of the American voter, go ahead, and I'll see you in a couple of generations.

                  But if you want to win elections now, you'd damn well better make sure that your voters understand your position, and understand very clearly that they agree with you.

                  If a campaign can't even do that, Walmart is probably hiring...


                  "Politeness is wasted on the dishonest, who will always take advantage of any well-intended concession." - Barrett Brown

                  by 3rdOption on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 12:01:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Oh, right. (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Johnny Q, corvo, quill, FrankRose, caul
                  This site that promotes 'more and better Democrats' should take this recall to heart because while the complaint is usually that we have to choose between a lesser of two evils or a lousy candidate,it appears this time we clearly needed 'better ' democratic party voters .
                  So, Dem campaigns consistently avoid/run away from major issues surrounding the election, then they lose the election, then it's the Dem voters fault.

                  Just like in 2010.
                  Just like in the WI recall.
                  Just like Colorado.

                  And it's always the Dem voters fault (and those damn lazy young people) for not coming out and supporting the Dems who run away from all the important issues, all the time. Even when they do come out.

                  I forgot that's how it worked.

                  Banking on the American people to be able to sort all this out and declare the adult in the room the winner is a very big bet. -Digby

                  by Boogalord on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 12:07:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  umm, the "party that wrote the rules" (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                nogo postal, FrankRose

                on marijuana -- both MMJ (2000) and recreational marijuana (2012) was, in both cases, a majority of the popular vote.  This wasn't a legislative or an executive action, nor was it a party-specific action: lots of Democrats were opposed, especially among elected officials, whereas lots of Republicans voted their small-l libertarian sentiments.  You're. just. wrong.

                Let's take abortion - George Rivera in the Pueblo recall supports personhood. You don't think the anti-abortion crowds saw an opening?
                No more an opening than every Republican takes, foolishly, in each Colorado election.  Except in certain parts of The Springs and maybe Greeley, it's a losing issue and always has been.

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 10:10:17 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Dems WROTE the rules on marijuana in Colorado. (0+ / 0-)

                  Of course they didn't enact it - they were given the law through initiatve. But they very much just got done WRITING the rules of it. That's not trying to stop it. That's going along with it.

                  In any case what major political party is most associated with marijuana legalization - Dems. Just like the GOP is the party most associated with anti-abortion sentiment.

                  In the case of a state senate race, it is no matter that marijuana won a popular vote - we are discussing two very small slices of that electorate, ie, the districts that are up for vote. The only thing that matters in that case with respect to marijuana is how those two districts view marijuana.

            •  ... ever heard of Operation Flypaper? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              caul

              Probably not, but in Pueblo I am sure they have:

              Local and federal law-enforcement agents swarmed into the San Isabel National Forest southwest of Pueblo this week and came out with more than 13,000 marijuana plants that had been growing illegally on public land.

              The action, dubbed "Operation Flypaper," targeted two marijuana-growing sites near Rye that authorities were tipped off to in January and have been watching since May, according to a news release from the Pueblo County Sheriff's Office.

              Two people were arrested in the Wednesday raid, according to the Sheriff's Office, while four others got away. Officials originally estimated about 9,000 plants were seized, but the Sheriff's Office later said there were 13,375 plants.

              The Sheriff's Office said it believes the growing operations are connected to Mexican drug cartels, though the news release did not explain why.

              http://www.denverpost.com/...
              •  . . . and I'm assuming you have evidence (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gerrilea, FrankRose

                that they were hanging this on Giron?

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 10:11:21 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, of course not - that's my point. The author (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  caul

                  doesn't have evidence that voters did not vote to recall Giron because of the marijuana issue, either.

                  I rec'd this diary because it is a good discussion to have. And I am pointing out these issues because too little emphasis can be out on guns but so too can too much emphasis be put on guns.

                  The author does a good thing in challenging the spin. That doesn't mean he/she walks on water.

                  I'd like to see data that directly says why people voted and what brought them to the polls. The author doesn't do that - he/she has a lot of good circumstantial data but it has to be inferred as to why people voted the way they did. There is no direct link between the data and why people voted the way they voted.

                  It seems more than plausible that these other issues played a role.

                  In any case, more facts and data will tell the story.

                  •  The thesis of my diary has nothing to do with guns (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    corvo, quill, LilithGardener

                    .

                    The diary is about the Democrat's chronic inability to accurately connect their policies with the voters who support those policies.

                    Remember "What's The Matter With Kansas"?

                    The Republicans can convince their base to cut their own throats.

                    The Democrats can't convince their base to tie their own shoes.


                    "Politeness is wasted on the dishonest, who will always take advantage of any well-intended concession." - Barrett Brown

                    by 3rdOption on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 12:06:58 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  OK, I don't disagree. So, Giron and Morse didn't (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LilithGardener, caul

                      do a good job of telling the story of why they voted for gun laws and why they are good laws and how the directly help reduce gun violence. And they thought by broadening the issues, they could get more people to come out to vote for them and those issues and they could bury the gun issue.

                      Unless I'm mistaken, I also took away from the diary that the issue that brought people to the polls and got them to vote against Dems was guns and basically guns alone. That's that part I don't agree with. But maybe I'm misreading the diary?

                      •  Guns and guns alone. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LilithGardener, ColoTim

                        That's it in a nutshell.

                        Both sides (but especially the Democrats) brought up other issues, but none of that had any staying power whatsoever. On the Republican side it sounded like excuse making for having a one-issue recall, and on the Democratic side, it sounded like cowardly avoidance.

                        So, in reality, bringing up the secondary issues made Giron look worse than if she'd said nothing.

                        It's like scolding a kid for breaking the cookie jar, and all he wants to talk about is what a good job he did vacuuming the carpet yesterday, and mowing the lawn this morning.

                        Total weaselage.

                        And there's nuthin' that Yosemite Sam hates worse then cowardly varmints!


                        "Politeness is wasted on the dishonest, who will always take advantage of any well-intended concession." - Barrett Brown

                        by 3rdOption on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 01:43:18 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I'm guessing the other issues didn't have staying (0+ / 0-)

                          power because it was an offer year, state senate election. Those issues would have had more staying power in a regular election.

                          I'm guessing, even if they had stuck to their guns, so to speak, it wouldn't have mattered. It was a flukey election - no mail in, off year, Morse was 12 months away from term limit (I could imagine some Dems thinking 'who cares, he is out in a year anyways, why bother').

                          I think it boils down simply to who is more pissed off - in Colorado, there is a lot of reason to be pissed off if you're conservative/libertarian, and not just guns but on a whole host of issues - guns, marriage equality, death penalty, taxes, marijuana, etc.

        •  Once again, precisely correct. n/t (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, LilithGardener


          "Politeness is wasted on the dishonest, who will always take advantage of any well-intended concession." - Barrett Brown

          by 3rdOption on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 11:56:27 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  On Pot. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, LilithGardener, ColoTim

        Conservative areas are dragging their feet about dispensaries.

        But everyone else is dragging their feet because a taxation issue is going to be on the ballot in November, so all the municipalities want to wait for it to pass or fail so they can write their statutes accordingly. Local taxation will be set accounting for the level of state taxation.

        The Conservative areas will come around, after the taxation measure passes, and they see how much sweet sweet cash the cities with dispensaries are bringing in. And also how much of that cash is leaving their cities as the smokers drive out of town to "score".


        "Politeness is wasted on the dishonest, who will always take advantage of any well-intended concession." - Barrett Brown

        by 3rdOption on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 11:47:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Giron and Morse had absolutely nothing (0+ / 0-)

        to do with Hickenlooper not allowing Dunlap's death to take place as scheduled, unless someone knows something locally that I missed.  

        •  The point I'm trying – and seemingly (0+ / 0-)

          unsuccessfully – to make is that there is a general backlash against Dems on a range of issues, including death penalty and any Dem is going to feel that simply because they are a Dem. In other words, I think a "throw the bums out" attitude got people to the polls - and not just because of guns.

          I think people looked at an opportunity to whittle down the Dems power in Colorado - not because of any one issue - but because all of the above and they see the state leaning more and more to the left and here was an opportunity to apply the breaks.

          You have counties that want succession for crying out loud - conservatives want Dems out anyway they can get it. Well, here was the first crack at that.

    •  Apropos marijuana ... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LilithGardener, caul

      I'm in Morse's district, and received several anti-Morse robocalls about his opposition to legalization and steps he tried to take to undermine  Amendment 64. It didn't matter to me, partly because Morse's replacement Bernie Herpin would have done the same thing if he'd had the chance, and partly because Morse had failed. But it may have hurt Morse a little, and this election came down to a very little.

      •  Morse's election *was* directly affected by... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, LilithGardener

        ...voter suppression and poor turnout.

        Because El Paso County has a Republican County Clerk.

        Who's a dick.

        But I'm being redundant.


        "Politeness is wasted on the dishonest, who will always take advantage of any well-intended concession." - Barrett Brown

        by 3rdOption on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 12:08:40 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  You are exactly correct. n/t (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo, LilithGardener


      "Politeness is wasted on the dishonest, who will always take advantage of any well-intended concession." - Barrett Brown

      by 3rdOption on Mon Sep 23, 2013 at 11:40:52 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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