Skip to main content

View Diary: Gun Owners Need to Get Used to a Few Things (967 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  I openly carry because (7+ / 0-)

    1. It is more comfortable.
    2. I have faster draw time
    3. It is my plumage indicating I have the ability to defend myself and those around me from aggression and thus warns away predators to easier targets.

    You'll notice your projected reason is absent here. Simply because you feel intimidated does not mean that is the intent - your reaction has no bearing on the cause.  I assure you the person OC is not thinking about you at all as they pass going about their business of the day.  They have more important things to concern themselves with, and honestly so should you.

    •  Yay! Your quick draw expertise is more... (11+ / 0-)

      impressive than your gunz.  I feel save to know you are practising up on the quick draw.  Whew.

      If debugging is the process of removing bugs, then programming must be the process of putting them in.

      by kharma on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 07:04:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  How does this move the conversation forward? (9+ / 0-)

        The purpose of carrying is defense of self and loved ones and in any situation where the firearm would need to be employed you better believe I want to deploy it quickly and accurately so as both to end the threat quickly and have the bullets stay on target.

        Draw and fire from holster is an exercise every person who carries should undertake as it forms muscle memory of the event which the brain will rely on in times of high stress.

        You're actually mocking someone for undertaking education, training, and practice.  Why would you wish to do this?

        •  Because it makes some feel better to demonize you (9+ / 0-)

          You may agree with 99% of the people here on most things we talk about but if you disagree about the 2nd you aren't a "true liberal". It just works that way, you are open to being mocked and treated as if you are irresponsible and stupid. That attitude really helps in elections, ya know.

          Background checks and magazine limits are supposedly what people want, but real liberals like the ones here want a complete ban on guns. They may deny it and dance around it, but that is what they want.

          They think a gun on it's own has serious juju and can turn you into either an enraged killer or an idiot. They love to point out those people who happen to be both gun owners and idiots and pretend that every gun owner is like them. It makes them feel superior or something.

          The same people are screaming about the 4th, you remember the amendment everybody gave up on years ago so they would feel safe because of crack crazed drug heads that were comin' to get them. Now it's a sacred amendment that we need to take back (that's right but where was everybody when it was being torn apart).

          But the 2nd..ah the 2nd. It is the source of too many fables and made up explanations and doesn't really mean what it says. They want it gone.

          That is why they do this to you. Forget about background  checks and mag limits. They want them gone and the 2nd out of the Constitution.

          And daddy won't you take me back to Muhlenberg County Down by the Green River where Paradise lay. Well, I'm sorry my son, but you're too late in asking Mister Peabody's coal train has hauled it away. John Prine

          by high uintas on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 08:48:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Indeed. (9+ / 0-)

            I have long lurked, not long posted, I've watched the firearm talks here but I've recently noticed a change in tone of the general conversation and civility (both changes for the worse).  I only felt the need to make an acount and comment because the major issue of difference with myself and the community was coming to the forefront and I felt that it was my duty to stand for the rights of others when they were under assault.  Which in and of itself is a sad commentary that I must protect rights from being trounced by Democrats - yet this is the world in which I live.

          •  "How does this move the conversation forward?" (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            coquiero
            Background checks and magazine limits are supposedly what people want, but real liberals like the ones here want a complete ban on guns. They may deny it and dance around it, but that is what they want.
            But the 2nd..ah the 2nd. It is the source of too many fables and made up explanations and doesn't really mean what it says. They want it gone.

            That is why they do this to you. Forget about background  checks and mag limits. They want them gone and the 2nd out of the Constitution.

            Really?

            Where and how many people here have espoused what you claim?

        •  Where do you hang out that is sooooo dangerous? (9+ / 0-)

          And why the hell do you take your loved ones there?

          Yikes. Exercise better judgment, man.

          And here is the rub:

          1. It is more comfortable.
          Only for YOU.

          Everyone around you?  Not.

          Your argument is your sense of personal comfort is more important than others around you (eg parents with their little loved ones).

          As of 9pm 8/30/13: RETIRED Pie Warrior. Substance over Sh*t Flinging (as best as I am able) ~ JV

          by JVolvo on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 10:37:00 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Interesting question (5+ / 0-)

            I go places that are more or less dangerous but no place is safe.  The chance may be rare but their impacts are large.  Why would I not invest in 800 dollars a a few hours a month of training and practice in order to be safer should that chance occur when I spend as much or more on insurance on my home for fire which also has a low chance of actually happening?  If it is wise to do one it is wise to do the other.

            Last I checked I don't wear what I wear to make others comfortable.  I can wear shorts and the guy next to me can be in a parka.  If it is 90 degrees out it is my comfort I am concerned with not parka-man.

            I don't have an argument here.  I am stating why I choose to OC - you're free to carry how you wish and so am I.

            I really hope that last line wasn't an appeal to "oh my think of the children!".  Children around me when I am armed are safer thatn children around me when I am unarmed because I am better able to protect them and their parents from those who may wish to do them violence in my presence.

            •  So you think (10+ / 0-)
              Children around me when I am armed are safer thatn children around me when I am unarmed
              That may be what you think.  But when I see your gun on your hip, I'm taking my kid out of line of sight from you.  And yeah, I'm calling the cops.  

              Because I don't know you.  I don't know your training.  I don't know if you've had anything to drink recently.  I don't know what your temperament is, if you've had a bad day, any of that.  

              All I know is that the possibility of bullets flying around just got higher because you are in sightline with my kid with a gun and no uniform.  There wasn't a gun out and visible before, and now there is one.

              You can tell yourself that you make the world around you safer all you want, but I believe you make it UNsafe.  And I will react accordingly.  

              I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

              by The Voice from the Cave on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 11:45:24 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It is your choice to act as you wish. (7+ / 0-)

                However let me tell you what you do know.

                You know that people who carry in holsters tend not to be criminals.  To the point that the FBI in quick asessement training tells agents to assume an individual with a holstered firearm is in the ignore category because they are so likely to be a lawful citizen.  

                You know that the person has very likely passed a NICS check for the purchase of that handgun.

                You know that the person is of the type to be comfortable carrying openly which means they are already likely to draw attention of police officers which means they are not likely to be criminals who do not wish to encounter such scrutiny.

                You also know that statistically in any situation where there are 20 people near you that it is likely one person is carrying regardless if you can see it or not.

                You can believe all you wish that is your reaction however you are statistically safer around a non-leo lawfully carrying than you are around a leo lawfully carrying.

                Science, evidence, research trumps gut feelings everytime but again you're free to make your decisions in opposition to available research.

                •  Statistics? (7+ / 0-)

                  Are you kidding?  

                  Here's the picture I'm painting in my mind.  I take my son and the dog over to a dog park here in Atlanta this weekend.  We've bought some drinks, we're throwing the football around and the dog is romping.  And then you walk through the gate, with your non-threatening medium to small size dog and a pistol on your hip.

                  Talk statistics all you want, but what do I know about you?  Yeah, you might or might not have passed a background check, because you might have gotten that gun from a straw purchase.  Do you have a license to open carry?  I assume so, because there is GA law to consider.

                  But you're asking me to ASSUME you are legal.  Sorry, that's not good enough.  I'm not assuming anything when deadly force is a possibility and no statistic in the world will convince me that isn't more likely when you strut in.  What I will assume is that you are by nature a confrontational person, because you are behaving in a confrontational manner by walking around with a gun on your non-law enforcement hip.  

                  And what happens when you are having a bad day, Carlos?  What happens if your dog gets in a fight with some clown that brought an aggressive dog to the park?  If that person uses a lot of derogatory language that you've heard your whole life, sneering at you and laughing while your dog bleeds?

                  What happens if it was your kid instead of your dog?

                  You're saying that people don't just snap sometimes?  Get so angry at years of built up rage and injustice that they don't just lash out?  And that when those people do lash out, death isn't MORE likely when they have a 9mm on their hip?  Quote stats all you want, but in my world, YOU are the danger.  YOU are the unknown.  YOU are the person that is confrontational and I will immediately get my kid away from you, because something about your personality and history has led you to the point of announcing to the world that YOU ARE DANGEROUS AND SHOULDN'T BE MESSED WITH.  

                  People like you need to be avoided, and yeah, I'd want the APD to come check for your license.

                  I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

                  by The Voice from the Cave on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 12:20:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm actually thinking of getting a (4+ / 0-)

                    dog.  I've never owned one but I think the bonding experience and a bit of responsibility might do some members of the family good.  Of course many are leaning towards cute without considering long term health or temperment.  Do you have any suggestions for a kid-friendly indoor/outdoor dog that can deal with a small yard?

                    I understand fear of the unknown - its a completely natural reaction and then added the hieghtened worry any parent naturally has for the well-being of their children.  However I try my best to temper my fears with reality and the only way we get a clear picture is through the research of those who insert raw cold hard math into our worlds.

                    I can assure you me walking in a park or anywhere else OC is not confrontational - it is simply the way I dress.  No more of a provacative thought to me when I dress as is my wristwatch or tie of choice (unless its funny tie die in the office).  I understand your reaction is to assume I am being provcative because to you it is an unusual activity so you judge in that framework.  Understand you have to assume everyone in a restaraunt is not going to use a steak knife to assault people, and you have to assume everyone driving is not going to assault people, and you have to assume...  Almost every object in our everyday lives could be turned deadly by someone with the desire to do so and thus in your daily life you are already assuming a default level of courtesty and civility from everyone else.  At the very least the basic level not to go around attempting to murder everyone else extending that because a person is doing something you may not normally see is not asking all that much - especially if you can temper your reaction with statistical knowledge.

                    If someone brought an aggressive dog to the park and that dog attacked my child I would shoot it and so would you if you were in the same situation and had that option to stop your child from being attacked.

                    I've had bad days when I've been carrying - bad days are a part of life. I've been mad while I've been carrying.  I've even been called racial slurs while I've been carried (but never by anyone while I was OC).  I've yet to draw my firearm in an expecation in any of those events.  I know this is anecdotal but I've never spoken to anyone who carries OC or CC who wants to draw.  Even the few situations I've been in where it crossed my mind that the situation may become one where I have to draw made me queasy.  That kind of responsibility and after effects it can do legally, socially, and mentally are not what a healthy person desires to deal with.  However to protect my family I would bear those responsibilities because the consequences for not doing so when they must be done are far far worse.  I've had friends that I grew up with that have had to bury their child and I never want to experience what I could see written on their faces.

                    If you choose to leave my presence so be it, I'll take the fact that we will never talk as our dogs sniff each other as a negative but that negative is far outweighed by the fact that the guy in the park who is looking to snatch my child or mug me in front of my child will have one though on their mind.  "Hell naw, not that dude."  And my dog or child and myself will return home unaccosted and unexposed to the horrors the world can insert into a happy life.  For your sake I hope that person doesn't then rest his gaze on you after he has passed over me and that you have the good fortune to never meet anyone like him.

                    •  Don't bring that argument, Carlos, just don't (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      coquiero, JVolvo, Joy of Fishes, Sandino
                      Understand you have to assume everyone in a restaraunt is not going to use a steak knife to assault people, and you have to assume everyone driving is not going to assault people, and you have to assume...  Almost every object in our everyday lives could be turned deadly by someone with the desire to do so
                      You are not like everyone in a steakhouse, Carlos.  Nor like everyone on the highway.  Why?  Because the only place where it is NORMAL for everyone to open carry is in the armed forces or the police forces.  Then, you are just like everyone else.

                      But where I live, you aren't.  People don't go to the park with a gun on their hip, or while taking a walk down the street.

                      And Carlos, you are saying that a dog that is in your sight line chewing on your kid's leg is something you would draw on.  You are saying that you would point the muzzle in the direction of your kid.

                      The problem I have with those that would open carry (or even those that concealed carry) is that they have decided, like you, that they are somehow better than the average human.  That they are somehow better equipped to deal with having life or death responsibility over everyone within range.  I don't trust their judgement, nor statistics.  I trust my own judgement.

                      And Carlos, keep your fear to yourself.  I get that you walk around afraid of the child snatcher or robber or the scary dog.  I don't.  I live in an urban area and I don't, because when I take the dog for a walk, I almost always see an APD car on patrol.  Maybe where you live is different.  Maybe there are lots of meth-addled child molesting thieves with abused dogs twenty miles from the nearest police.  (Is there a Catholic seminary next door?  JOKE!  It was a JOKE!)  Maybe you live where carrying around a gun makes sense.  

                      BUT........that last little tag "I hope that person doesn't rest his gaze on your unarmed self" is such petty bullshit.  OOOOooo......one day those mean anti-gun folks will be sorry when they don't have a gun......I hate that.  My answer is always the same....I hope that one day you don't tragically find out your kid has been playing with your gun.  I can get just as macabre as you can.

                      Kid-friendly dog with small yard with good long-term health.......gah.  I have to admit the dogs are my girlfriend's......pugs.  Very sweet, but shed like crazy and deal with the kid very well.  Some have health issues later in life.  I've always believed the best dogs are mutts, because the various issues purebreeds have are many times bred out.  The best-behaved kid dog I know is my sister's "Kentucky licking hound".  All they know is that he's a dog.

                      I'm a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed....you know

                      by The Voice from the Cave on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 01:07:19 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I wasn't aware that being abnormal (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Sparhawk, FrankRose

                        is something that is bad or that should be acted again.  Do you mean by normal mean, median, or mode or perhaps within one standard deviation of them?  Just because something is out of the ordinary doesn't mean anything except that the person is different and unlike Sesame Street I don't call out difference just to call them out (or worse to somehow isolate the person who is different).  I judge on actions and a person with a firearm who is walking his dog in the park is much less on my radar than the person who is walking around the park with a paper bag, and some silver around his mouth.  However that is me and how I make my judgements for my own and my families well being.

                        Yes a dog attacking my child will be shot.  I'm not going to apologize for that.   I would point the muzzle in the direction of my target not my child.  I do not fire until I am sure of my target and beyond and some animal tearing into the flesh of my child will certainly be a target it will also be a legal action where I live (and in fact everywhere I've lived that I can recall).

                        I am not better than you because I carry a firearm.  In fact I have no idea how you could come to that conclusion. I have made different choices than you have and have made a different decision than you.  I recognize that the decision I make is not for everyone and I respect other's choice to decide to do as I have not.  Is it really that shocking that I ask for the same consideration in retrun?

                        Thank you, I hope my youngest doesn't get into my firearms or anything else dangerous.  I didn't mean (as it seems you think I meant) to warn you - I meant it honestly because those things do happen.  Good people do meet with bad situations and far too frequently.  One can never know when that "bad thing" will happen so the best we can do is give ourselves options of dealing with it and ways of early detection and hopefully avoidance.  If we could all know exactly when and where those bad things would happen - those bad things would never happen.  We can't and so they do.

                        I really have no interest in having a little ball of fluff who yaps but that seems to be the directiont he family is going.  I know daschunds are really cute but they have bad health issues and as my work takes me away and that is enough of a hassle for the family - I'd rather not have something else that could go wrong at the wrong time.  Not enoguh room for a golden retriever though if I had the lawn that is what I would go for.  Maybe a beagle...but then I think they slobber a lot and that just isn't going to fly with the wife.

    •  Your #3 is the very definition of "intimidate". (18+ / 0-)

      Also telling is the use of "plumage" but that's beside the point.

      "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

      by CaliSista on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 07:26:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Spines, bright coloration. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon, oldpunk, gerrilea, FrankRose

        What other ways nature has to show that would otherwise be prey has defense mechanisms.  Take your pick.  I smell bad, I spray hot chemical discharge from my glands, I can spit poison, I am poisonous, I have spikes.

        It is my warning to the aggressive that I am neither unwilling nor unable to resist their violence.   A warning that I will not be a victim nor will I allow others near me to be victims is not intimidation - I am not threatening force on anyone.  I am promosing force on those who wish to threaten me with it.

        •  Peacocks fighting (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Damnit Janet, Sandino, JVolvo, Laconic Lib

          With peacocks, they have sexually selected characteristics in their plumage.  

          The more eyes the peacock has, the more likely it is to mate.  

          Now, as in all situations where there is a superior male, the plumage is a naturally occurring characteristic.  They do not need to augment the sexual characteristics that they have.  

          And you should also be aware that any time there is a superior male, there will eventually be an inferior male who believes himself to be capable of knocking off the big guy.  

          None of this seems to inspire confidence in the idea that someone talks about how they use their weapon as "plumage."

          Streichholzschächtelchen

          by otto on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 07:50:37 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I fail to see why you are objecting (6+ / 0-)

          to the word intimidate. It's clear from your own words (despite your curious protestations) that intimidation is one of your aims. "Warning", "promising force" are all variations on the same theme.

          "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

          by CaliSista on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 09:02:01 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  If you see displaying a signal (5+ / 0-)

            that one is capable of responding to attempts to violently harm innocents as intimidating all people then you must necessarily find the justice system and police intimidating for they serve the same function - one in society and the other personally.

            Simply because a person may feel intimidated does not mean the object of that emotion had the intent to do so.  I am sure some people will feel intimidated because other's have firearms.  I am sure people feel intimidated because I am a large dark skinned male.  I'm sure some people are intimidated because I am tall or I wear a suit.  In none of these cases do the feelings of others create a cause in me an intent.  In fact the idea that the reactions of others define the motive for the actions of others that came before the reaction is to reverse causation.

            •  The Justice system? Don't quite see the (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              coquiero, Sandino

              connection to the topic. Police officers? Sure, I find them intimidating. I think their being armed is in part to ensure that the citizenry is intimidated into obedience. If you want to limit open carrying of a firearm to police, I can accept that tradeoff.

              "Someone just turned the lights on in the bar and the sexiest state doesn't look so pretty anymore" CA Treasurer Bill Lockyer on Texas budget mess

              by CaliSista on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 11:15:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  That is just so funny (6+ / 0-)

          that you say your gun isn't to intimidate others, and then you say that your gun is to intimidate others.

          At least you proved the original commenter's point.

          "As the madmen play on words, and make us all dance to their song / to the tune of starving millions, to make a better kind of gun..." -- Iron Maiden

          by Lost Left Coaster on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 11:02:13 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Just what I was thinking. (4+ / 0-)

        I’m thinking we should repeal indecent exposure laws. That way guys who feel the need can just wave their dicks around and leave the guns at home.

        Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

        by Joe Bob on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 10:08:38 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I gotta say (13+ / 0-)

      Given your arguments, I think I'll stay with the unarmed people.  

      I don't want someone strutting plumage.  

      If you look at what happens in mating situations where plumage is being strutted, then you would see that the males often attract other aggressive males who are also interested in strutting their plumage.

      Your comment is basically a caricature.

      Streichholzschächtelchen

      by otto on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 07:41:07 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're reading far more into the plumage (7+ / 0-)

        word than was intended.  It is my way or warning off aggressors the same way that nature uses on animals that otherwise appear defenseless.

        If you look at situations where criminal activity is likely (and the incidents captured by police, and the studies of violent inmates) they all point to criminals picking what they believe are easy targets.  My firearm on my hip clearly indicates I would not be an easy target the same way plumage, bright coloration, and other things in nature warn away predators.

        This is why I find OC to be far more likely at stopping a violent situation from occuring in my presence than would CC.  I would rather have the display of the firearm ward away an encounter than find myself in one.  Avoidance is always the best way to deal with violence and that is what I want for myself and my family - the avoidance of violence and harm.  The same as any other man out there wants for his family - wouldn't you agree?

      •  Totally agree. This sums up exactly why (9+ / 0-)

        people who feel a psychological need or desire to walk around armed in public places, strutting the "plumage" of a gun on their person, can and reasonably should be considered at least potentially dangerous.

        They are starting out any interaction with announcing to everyone around them that they feel frightened and insecure. Insecure enough to need extra weaponry, and frightened enough that they need to puff themselves up by displaying this extra-dangerous plumage -- something that says loud and proud: "I'm big and dangerous! Stay away from me!" to other humans.

        Ok then. So other humans are now frightened and think you are scary. You have made it clear you are willing to murder people around you at a moment's notice. So you cannot then also claim to feel slighted or unfairly maligned when other people recognize you as someone who is potentially dangerous!

        Psychologically, we know that a person carrying a gun is a person who needs to strut around with a gun on display in order to feel safe and important. And we know they are armed and can, at their whim, decide to kill people who happen to be anywhere near them. At a distance, in large numbers, in a matter of seconds. This is clearly a potentially dangerous combination and it is perfectly reasonable and fair to treat it as such.

    •  I would definitely avoid you (10+ / 0-)

      My father collects guns and your "plumage" is a warning sign for me to leave the area because someone appears to have an ego problem

      "I watch Fox News for my comedy, and Comedy Central for my news." - Facebook Group

      by Sychotic1 on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 08:06:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Faster draw time (5+ / 0-)

      Seriously, where do you live? Arizona in the 1880s? Comments like yours are why the rest of the world thinks that the USA is just absolutely crazy. People have never gotten over the Wild West, and they think that any day might be the OK Corral.

      I just don't get it. I'm just grateful that I live in a place where guns are highly restricted (I'm a US citizen but live in Canada), and (oddly enough) gun murders here are rare. People don't feel so insecure that they have to be strapped like a cowboy to walk around. It's nice.

      "As the madmen play on words, and make us all dance to their song / to the tune of starving millions, to make a better kind of gun..." -- Iron Maiden

      by Lost Left Coaster on Mon Sep 30, 2013 at 11:00:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site