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  •  Regarding the base... (13+ / 0-)

    They think they're in an existential crisis for the fate of their own participation in the nation.  That if they don't fight this thing now, with everything they've got at their disposal, that there will be no way to fight in the future.

    In that regard, this sort of comment makes sense.

    On the other hand, I almost expect them not to raise the debt limit, Obama to cite that the nation's credit 'shall not be questioned' and raise it himself, then the freakout-party scream for an impeachment.

    Unfortunately for them, this is something that non-partisans can see.  And they're not generally kind towards those with paranoid delusions.

    •  Agreed (6+ / 0-)

      The public displays of absolute freakout are going to get these rants off the back pages of their internal conversations and into the mainstream media.  At least I hope that happens and that the center of American politics, including the Republican establishment, realizes that they have to go.

      My fear is that they will somehow continue to hide their 6 legged sheep and manage to convince the electorate that they are all sane and well mannered.

      Someday soon Republicans are going to drown Grover Norquist - in a bathtub.

      by nuketeacher on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 04:31:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Be patient. Someone will record something. (8+ / 0-)

        I doubt anyone in the mainstream press will report on random blog posts or the comments associated with them.  Sometimes, people here will post in a similar fashion.

        The problem will occur when the base pressures their representatives to listen to these theories, and voice them.  At that point it will become a major problem for the Republican party.

        For example, I am sometimes a jerk here because it's my style (and sometimes, ironic mocking can sometimes help to convey a point), but I would not encourage my Democratic representative to behave in such a fashion.

        I represent nobody but myself, and when I am passionate about something I tend to mock what I consider erroneous thinking.

        That is not good political practice.

        Or good for changing minds.  It's just fun.  Sometimes.

        •  Their base has been ragging on their cowardice (4+ / 0-)

          for a few week now, longer in some areas.

          The last "vacation" when the RWNJs were spewing their shit to the RWNJ "American People", they got nothing but shit for not doing what they said they'd do.

          They screamed the Obamacare end of the world crap endlessly, ran their campaign on promising to kill it, got elected, then tried to back away from actually working on those promises.

          So the RWNJs are almost violent at these RWNJ rah-rah sessions. Violence is all they know. So there's that.

          It's already a major problem for the Republican Party.

          By definition, the cognitive dissonance in the RWNJ followers will cause them to double-down and things will get a lot worse for the Republican Party.

          But the crazies will vote for them. They are not rational. Never were. Never will be.

          We have no reason to get all upset about these idiots. Yeah, I'm upset about what this shit is doing to we, the little people. It means I'm not insane, I guess. No need to feed the trolls, though.

          Self-destruction is unavoidable.

          Off to the grocery store - we're out of popcorn again.

          I'll patiently watch the show....

          "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

          by GrumpyOldGeek on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 08:15:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  crisis in what they imagine their participation (6+ / 0-)

      in the nation to have been.

      They've been in a delusional world since the days of rockabilly.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 04:36:40 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Obama will not cave (13+ / 0-)

      Nor will he raise the debt limit, mint a coin, whatever.  He's said he thinks those are constitutionally questionable.  What is not questionable is that the Tea Party has found a loophole in our system of government and is trying to exploit it.

      Obama will close that loophole.  He's sworn to uphold the constitution and this is a direct threat to it.

      There seems to be some notion that Obama needs to negotiate.  He cannot and still uphold the constitution.  We cannot have a system whereby the house can vote a budget and then turn around and make whatever demands they please when that budget results in a debt increase.  Cannot.  That is not rule of law.

      Ergo: we probably default.  Obama may be satisfied by a clean CR.  I doubt even that.  If it comes to default, he will probably demand that congress abolish the debt limit.  He certainly should.

      And it's not because of Obamacare.  This could be over the name of the East Skokie Post Office.  Doesn't matter.  What matters is that we have a loophole in our system of law and it must be closed.

      •  Obama seems to be a pragmatist. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        nuketeacher, highacidity, Ahianne

        He strikes me as more worried about the long-term consequences of his choices, not the short term consequences.

        If I had the choice of being impeached by fanatics or sending the nation into a deep, long recession (if those really are the choices he has), I'd go the route of personal sacrifice.  I'd hope most people would.

        He'd just rather give everyone the time and opportunity to prove cynicism wrong.

        •  Those are not his choices, alas... (4+ / 0-)

          His choices are to either cave (in which case he's dramatically weakened if not flat out compromised the constitution) or stand firm and get a depression.  Bad either way.

          The depression hurts the country.

          Caving pretty much destroys it.

          It's not really a choice, is it?

          •  My bad... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nuketeacher, Bluefin

            You were referring to mint the coin, etc.

            He won't do that either.  He has said, and the constitution also says, that all spending starts in the house.  He's not going to violate that - which would be a huge increase in presidential power.  Not because of the consequences for him, but because, again, it destroys the balance in the constitution.

            This really is a box canyon.  The only way out is a clean CR, if Obama even accepts that.  He may require the elimination of the debt limit - he should - and that would have dire political consequences for him.  Tough choice.

            •  Minting the coin would remove the debt ceiling (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              jayden, Bluefin, Ahianne, nuketeacher

              issue. Since the platinum coin measure is already law, nothing stops the President from doing it except his aversion to the unconventional.
                 There is no reason for the President to cave on the debt ceiling and it would be criminally irresponsible for him to allow the government to fail to pay its bills or allow the economy to sink into depression because of the recalcitrance of the House Republicans.
                The 14th Amendment argument is questionable. There is legal argument that the requirement to pay for already authorized pending outweighs the debt ceiling. That would probably win in the courts, but it isn't a sure thing.
                The multi-trillion dollar coin is legal, if novel, and, if the Pubs won't give Obama a clean debt ceiling, he should use it.
                 The American people deserve a government that isn't lurching from phony crisis to phony crisis and if Obama can't deliver that, they'll get somebody who will.

              •  If he mints that coin... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                nuketeacher

                He will have created a precedent for the presidency spending money in an extra-legal way, without congressional approval.  That's worked out so well, for going to War, even on a limited basis, no?  Note that he's also created some precedent on THAT front....

                If he even can mint that coin.  He says he cannot, his legal mentor says he cannot, I don't think he's even considering it.

                I would further add that budgeting is the central requirement for a country's government.  If a country cannot budget it cannot exist.  Relying on Daddy Obama to swoop in (or Daddy Bush or Daddy Cruz or Mommy Clinton or whoever) is not going to work long term, and it's not clear to me that we want that anyway.

                Or we could just elect monarchs.  How's His Highness Ted Cruz the First strike you?

                If we want this country to exist, we had better elect lawmakers who can govern.  Simple as that.  If we can't, there won't be a country.  You probably know that, I know that, but a lot of people in this country don't seem to have received the message.  

                They are probably about to get that message, loud and clear.

    •  The money will make Boehner put up the debt (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CenPhx, nuketeacher, Bluefin

      limit clean.  Republicans will find themselves cut off from all money if they don't.

      They'll keep the government shut down, but they'll raise the debt limit.

      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." --M. L. King "You can't fix stupid" --Ron White -6.00, -5.18

      by zenbassoon on Sat Oct 05, 2013 at 06:50:25 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You ever hang out with someone who was just... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        myboo, nuketeacher

        crazy.  I mean, uncontrollable.  No idea what was going to happen?  A danger to everyone around them?

        And at first you say to yourself, man this is great fun.  Then you start thinking, I'll just need to put on the brakes a bit.  After that, you start to figure out that you can't do that.  Then you know that they are just doing their own thing and there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

        So, you get away.

        You learned that.  Now it's The Money's turn to learn that.  Unfortunately, those crazy out of control people?  They are in our congress.  In charge of our budget.  And nobody has any control over them.  Boehner's trying to exert some now, but it's not going so well.

        Could be worse, I guess.  I mean, you sorta figure they don't actually have access to nuclear weapons.  

        Yet.

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