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View Diary: Losing the Pacific Ocean (162 comments)

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  •  proof (0+ / 0-)

    if the corium was melting through the concrete there would be a chimney of thick black, intensely radioactive smoke coming out of the building.  did you see that?

    once the corium passed through the concrete (meters of it) entered the groundwater, the subsequent steam explosion would have pushed corium material in a scatter pattern around the site for about 1/4 of a mile.  noone in this area would survive exposure for more than a few hours.

    do we have people working on site?

    have people entered the turbine building?

    what are the radiation levels outside of the torus building?

    how much radioactive steam is currently being emitted from the site?

    these questions, if answered accurately prove that your assertion is not true.

    •  Once again, nonsense. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      pfiore8

      The coriums melted through more than two years ago. When heavy steam and black smoke were even more common at the facility than exploding reactor buildings, boiling ground-geysers and muddy fumeroles.

      For the record:

      1. The corium is IN the groundwater. Which reached surface level a couple of weeks ago, and has since an earthquake re-routed the 'underground river' completely flooded the basement[s] of the plants.

      2. The corium may be under the basement[s] or still in the basements, I have not claimed otherwise. It doesn't matter, they are IN water either way. The water is both inside and outside the basements and flowing to the sea carrying contamination picked up from the corium it's been in contact with.

      3. The coriums have been in regular contact with water all along. That's what the whole "pumping water into the reactors" is all about. The hotter plutonium-rich corium from unit 3 is still steaming, but none of the flows are likely still on the move. Steam [+hydrogen] explosions happened over first week of the disaster. They destroyed the 4 reactor buildings (1, 3 & 4 more visibly than 2, which exploded from the torus).

      4. TEPCO/GE workers entered at least one of the turbine buildings within days. There were dead men in there.

      5. There's no such thing as a "torus building." The design of these plants is easily found on-line. You should avail yourself.

      6. We have no reports on how much radioactive steam is still escaping, but unit 3 is visibly emitting radioactive steam.

      Anyone who gets the documented current conditions and actual design of these plants so ridiculously WRONG cannot expect to maintain a pretense of knowing what he's talking about. Better luck trolling elsewhere.

      •  batshit (0+ / 0-)
        black smoke were even more common at the facility than exploding reactor buildings, boiling ground-geysers and muddy fumeroles.
        you are out of your freaking mind.
      •  The reason you (0+ / 0-)

        are completely unreasonable about this is that the scale of the accident that you are describing is about 10,000 times worse than what was observed.  

        If what you said was happening was true then it would be impossible to be on the site due to lethal exposure.  

        It is clear you have no actual experience with this industry or material.

        The difference between the corium being within the Torus room and melted through the basement and into the groundwater below the building is a big difference and, yes, you have claimed the latter.

        The reason water is leaking out into the ground water is because there is a leak from the torus room to the turbine room in the reactor 2.  There is likely

        They are pumping water into the reactor 2 to cool the material and keep it covered.  That water is leaking out and needs to be contained.  

        stating things that aren't true to funnel traffic to your conspiracy website isn't a kind thing to do.  you are intentionally scaring people with fabrications and you obviously don't care if you are being truthful.

        •  Oh, and just so you know (0+ / 0-)

          for purposes of future trolling, there's no such thing as a "Torus Room" either. There is just a torus, a.k.a. Supression Chamber. Entirely separate from the reactor building is the turbine building. Now you're calling that a "room" too. Oy, vey.

          The chamber is not a room, nor is it a building (it is entirely within the reactor building's confines). It is a big donut about ~35 feet interior diameter, surrounding the base of the containment bulb, with some water in it - its purpose is to take the surge overflow and resulting pressure from the RCS [Reactor Coolant System] when there's an emergency scram. That is its ONLY purpose, which is why they call it a "supression chamber."

          This chamber was necessary in the GE designs because the containment bulb was known to be too small to contain expected fluctuations in pressure and water level during an accident. Pressurized Water Reactors instead have huge containment domes kept at a negative atmospheric pressure to contain steam explosions and scram/accident caused coolant level disruptions.

          The torus has a catwalk well above the normal water line for workers doing various jobs (even while the reactor is operating), accessed by hatch from perimeter locations. It occupies the first basement level below ground of the plant. It has no outlet to the turbine building because it is not part of the steam plant or generation machinery. There can be no "leak" of water between the torus and the turbine building unless molten core flows sharply uphill through walls and earth to create a connection. I just checked - gravity still works.

          That means you're full of shit.

          •  torus room (0+ / 0-)
            for purposes of future trolling, there's no such thing as a "Torus Room" either. There is just a torus, a.k.a. Supression Chamber. Entirely separate from the reactor building is the turbine building. Now you're calling that a "room" too. Oy, vey.
            you are SUCH a tool. . .

            http://fukushima-diary.com/...

            Tepco considers to fill Torus room with grout to stop ground water flowing in

            Tepco “No major damage was found in torus room of reactor2″

            Tepco to drill a hole on the first floor of reactor2 for torus room investigation on 3/24~25

            Official TEPCO document
            http://www.tepco.co.jp/...

            Investigation of Unit 2 Torus Room at Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station
            •  Not a "room." (0+ / 0-)

              It's a "torus." AKA a "Supression Chamber."

              A couple of years ago I wrote a little book on health physics for the home, then had it translated into Japanese. Had three different translators work on it, each of them had slightly different ways of wording the information, which didn't track well in any version with the precision of the technical data being translated. It's a language issue, asian languages have quite a lot of "fuzz" in them.

              Had you ever been in the bowels of a plant of this design, you would know that there is neither "building" or "room." What is described here is the interior of the torus itself.

              Which, no matter what language you're speaking or translating to/from, still has no connection to the turbine building. That's just a fact, you can't change it by throwing a tantrum in the off-list of DKos.

              [Where's my handy-dandy can of Troll-Away, anyway?]

              •  The suppression chamber (0+ / 0-)

                is located in a seperate room.

                http://enformable.com/...

                I can't believe you are so dense.

                A couple of years ago I wrote a little book on health physics for the home, then had it translated into Japanese.
                I can see now where your personal interest lies in maximizing the fear of this accident.

                The only question now is whether or not you are doing this intentionally, to scare people and make money, or if you are simply engaging in "wishful thinking".

                •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

                  I've described this thing as well as it can be, and still you say...

                  The suppression chamber is located in a separate room.
                  You linked a simplistic diagram showing two round 'things' (in squared-off 'rooms') underneath and on either side of the containment bulb, labeled "suppression chamber" on one side, and tell me that's a different "room" from the torus. These are not two "rooms" with round things in them, your diagram is a CROSS-SECTION of this contraption [under construction, Nine Mile Point] -

                  BWRdrywell

                  The piping from the reactor building to the turbine building is on level with the steam chamber at the top of the reactor (and its containment bulb, a.k.a. "Drywell." There is no piping or direct connection anywhere between the bottom level (or top, for that matter) of the torus/supression chamber, through the reactor building wall, through the turbine building wall, and into the turbine building. On any level. This is because the torus/suppression chamber has nothing to do with producing steam to turn turbine/generators to produce electricity. It's a pressure sink for the Drywell. That's all it is, all it was ever designed to be.

                  •  There is a seperate (0+ / 0-)

                    chamber that contains the suppression torus

                    there are concrete walls that isolate it from the rest of the reactor.  The torus room is part of the primary containment structure.

                    The turbine building is adjacent to the torus room.

                    http://upload.wikimedia.org/...

                    •  Clueless. And annoying. (0+ / 0-)

                      Because this troll is doing his troll thing (gotta love the desperate "last word" crap) in my diary, I'll use the basic design diagram Minas linked...

                      The "Primary Containment" is that upside-down light bulb looking thing in which the reactor vessel hangs from the top. The "Secondary Containment" is the reactor building around the bulb and including the donut-shaped torus in the first below-ground basement, a.k.a. the "Reactor Building."

                      The torus is not the "Primary Containment" because it contains nothing directly associated with reactor operation. Like the actual reactor, control rods, instrumentation, sampling stations, etc. It is an RCS overflow reservoir and pressure relief structure for the primary. IOW, a peripheral structure making up for the volume deficiencies of the primary.

                      To my knowledge there has never been a meltdown where corium lava ended up in the torus (until Daiichi #2). If that corium has melted through the torus, it would be on the basement floor underneath its melt-hole in the bottom of torus structure. If it melts through that floor it would fall to the floor of the next sub-basement. If it were to find and follow any drain pipes at the bottom of the torus or basement floors it would follow those pipes to their lowest level, then exit at that point if still hot enough. It would not flow vertically uphill at any point, nor would it fly through air and melt through walls horizontally as New Minas has so cluelessly claimed.

                      Bottom line: Gravity Works.

                      •  you sure are derogatory (0+ / 0-)

                        when you know absolutely nothing of what you speak. . .

                        The Mark I containment design consists of several major components, many of which can be seen on
                        page 3-16. These major components include:

                        • The drywell, which surrounds the reactor vessel and recirculation loops,
                        A suppression chamber, which stores a large body of water (suppression pool),
                        • An interconnecting vent network between the drywell and the suppression chamber, and
                        The secondary containment, which surrounds the primary containment (drywell and suppression
                        pool)
                        and houses the spent fuel pool and emergency core cooling systems.

                        here, go see for yourself:  http://www.nrc.gov/...
                        The primary containment is designed to condense steam and to contain fission products released from a loss of coolant accident so that offsite radiation doses  specified in 10 CFR 100 are not exceeded and to provide a heat sink and water source for certain safety related equipment.
                        OF COURSE THE SUPPRESSION POOL IS PRIMARY CONTAINMENT!

                        there aren't "Drains" in the primary containment.  puhleeze!!!

          •  you are sadly mistaken (0+ / 0-)
            Pressurized Water Reactors instead have huge containment domes kept at a negative atmospheric pressure to contain steam explosions and scram/accident caused coolant level disruptions.
            So BWRs have no containment domes???

            http://www.nrc.gov/...

            The torus has a catwalk well above the normal water line for workers doing various jobs (even while the reactor is operating), accessed by hatch from perimeter locations. It occupies the first basement level below ground of the plant. It has no outlet to the turbine building because it is not part of the steam plant or generation machinery. There can be no "leak" of water between the torus and the turbine building unless molten core flows sharply uphill through walls and earth to create a connection
            where is the suppression pool heat exchanger located at?

            http://fukushima.ans.org/...
            page 22 clearly shows the leak from the torus room through the secondary containment to the turbine building.  The bottom of the Torus room is above the height of the turbine building.

            •  . (0+ / 0-)
              So BWRs have no containment domes???
              Yes, BWRs have no containment domes. They have that upside-down light bulb inside a great big rectangular building that also holds the equipment and spent fuel pools, fueling crane, big equipment lifts to basement level tunnels connecting to the common spent fuel pool across the 'street', lots of various pumps, pipes and other plant peripherals, and the torus in the basement.
              where is the suppression pool heat exchanger located at?
              There is no suppression pool heat exchanger. Its job is to take scram surge overflow water - which by the time it's in the bottom of the containment bulb to go through the conduits to the torus, is less than 200ºF - not even boiling. The torus is ~half full of tepid water that cools the overflow even more via basic dilution. When the reactor's ready for decay stabilization flow or restart the water pumped back to the reactor (or previously to the RCS reserve tanks) from the torus is still plain old RCS water.
              page 22 clearly shows the leak from the torus room through the secondary containment to the turbine building.
              Garbage. That's an ANS fluff piece extolling their not-so brilliant 'plans' to clean up the mess at Daiichi, assuming that in at least one plant (#2) the torus is breached and the peripheral enclosure flooded. So they've proposed drilling through the wall and installing pipes and pumps that would take that floodwater up to their proposed new Areva-style resin purification plant (that will replace the steam plant no longer needed forevermore).

              You don't even read these links, do you?

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