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  •  I agree with you, but it would be far worse ... (18+ / 0-)

    than the Great Recession.  In fact, it could well be worse than the Great Depression if it lasted any significant length of time.  The economy is MUCH more specialized and interdependent now than it was back then, so throwing sand into the gears would cause much greater disruption.

    As but one example, most Americans back then had relatives who were farmers, and most farmers back then had some cows, some chickens, a big garden, etc.  If things got really bad, your farmer relatives would probably take you in.  You might not have the money to buy anything, but you would at least have something to eat.  Now, very few Americans have members of their families are farmers, and even the farms are vastly more specialized than they were back then, so even the typical farmer couldn't really feed his family on what was produced on their own farm.

    Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

    by leevank on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 09:10:33 AM PDT

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    •  Economic terrorists..call they what they are (14+ / 0-)

      I'm from the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Democratic Party

      by voicemail on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 09:17:41 AM PDT

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      •  I completely agree with you! (17+ / 0-)

        What I don't understand is why so much of the media ignores the fact that THE REPUBLICANS REFUSED TO NEGOTIATE FOR SIX MONTHS!  Both the House and the Senate passed budget resolutions in March, and the Senate Democrats repeatedly tried to get a conference committee appointed to negotiate on the differences, and THE REPUBLICANS REFUSED TO DO IT.

        On Morning Joe today, Scarborough and one of their conservative guests were going on about how the Senate hadn't passed a single appropriations bill, while ignoring the fact that the Senate Appropriations Committee has approved appropriations bills for all departments except one, most of them with bipartisan support.  The first appropriations bill that was brought to the floor of the Senate had gotten through the Appropriations Committee with the support of 6 Republicans, but Republicans filibustered it, and ALL Senate Republicans who voted on cloture voted against cloture, including the six who had supported the bill in the Appropriations Committee. If the six Republicans who voted for the bill in committee had supported cloture, it would have had 60 votes, and would have been passed.  

        It doesn't surprise me that a former Republican Congressman like Scarborough would try to peddle that crap, but not a single Democrat on the show called him on it!  It's clear that the Republican position is really the following: "We want to negotiate if, but only if, we're holding a loaded cocked gun to the country's head, and telling Democrats that we'll pull the trigger if we don't get our way."

        Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

        by leevank on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 09:29:29 AM PDT

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        •  asdf (7+ / 0-)
          What I don't understand is why so much of the media ignores the fact that THE REPUBLICANS REFUSED TO NEGOTIATE FOR SIX MONTHS!  
          Because it's an inconvenient truth. Either for their he said/he said narrative, or for the corporate media more directly.

          This time, the elephant must go down. And if possible, it must be so wounded it does not get up for a long time to come. -- Andrew Sullivan, 1 October 2013

          by billlaurelMD on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 12:23:39 PM PDT

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        •  Said the "media" (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hamlets Father, jayden

          "But more importantly, it would be stuff that Republicans have successfully messaged against it," Todd told Rendell. "They don't repeat the other stuff because they haven't even heard the Democratic message. What I always love is people say, 'Well, it's you folks' fault in the media.' No, it's the President of the United States' fault for not selling it."

    •  Your farmer relatives back then were losing (7+ / 0-)

      their farms to the banks and loading everything they had into the model T's.

      Well, in the central plains.  In the South, if you were white and had "farmer relatives", it was a 50/50 chance that they were sharecroppers and if you were black it was a certainty.

      That meant that as demand for the cash crops they were forced to grow plummeted, they were falling further and further into debt themselves, and generally didn't have anywhere near enough to feed their own.

      If you were hispanic and had any relatives who still farmed rather than being hired labor, their farms were being ravaged by one of the worst droughts in the last 500 years.  They were scraping by on a deer now and then and maybe cactus pears or pinion nuts.  Huge areas of the Southwest that were once farmed have been nothing but poor-quality ranchland since the  30's.

      Of course, if you were part of the huge chunk of Americans descended from post civil-war immigrants, it's not that likely anyone in your family had a farm.  

      If you were Native American, well, if you were lucky your family might have some livestock but the truth is that that  Indian Emergency Conservation Work was the only thing that stood between most reservation populations and literal starvation.

      In the northern plains/ Great Lakes area, in the Pacific Northwest, there is some truth to the notion that the worst impacts of the Depression were moderated for some people by family farms - but that's not how things were for most of America.

      There weren't a couple million men riding box cars every night because "If things got really bad your farmer relatives would probably take you in".

      "But the traitors will pretend / that it's gettin' near the end / when it's beginning" P. Ochs

      by JesseCW on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 09:24:21 AM PDT

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      •  Small farm in Michigan, 10 kids to feed, and my (0+ / 0-)

        mother's family hardly felt the Depression.  You are correct.

        If the plutocrats begin the program, we will end it. -- Eugene Debs.

        by livjack on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 09:27:10 AM PDT

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      •  My grandparents were tenant farmers in IL ... (4+ / 0-)

        at the time, and they managed to take one of my aunts and her husband in.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that things weren't terrible during the Great Depression, but they'd be vastly worse now because the presence of lots of small, family farms at least provided some safety valve that isn't present now.

        Bin Laden is dead. GM and Chrysler are alive.

        by leevank on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 09:33:38 AM PDT

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      •  People act like nobody had jobs in the Depression (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JesseCW, Aquarius40, PJEvans, BachFan

        A lot DIDN'T, but a lot did. And many of those that had jobs in the cities took in relatives.

        A lot of farmers lost everything in the drought. They didn't call it the 'dust bowl' for nothing - read The Worst Hard Time  for an idea of just how bad it was. Or read The Grapes of Wrath. Hell, just watch the first 15 minutes of The Wizard of Oz. That wasn't so far fetched - large swaths of the midwest looked just like that. And that tornado was as likely to be made of dust as anything else.

        The farmers in the midwest who lost everything migrated to the north and west. Some might have gone east, but without a skill they wouldn't have much luck there. They knew how to farm and pick crops, so California was a much better bet. Or the factories in the upper midwest.

        But this idea of 'they had farms so they were OK' is just wishful thinking.

        •  Great Depression stories ... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Bisbonian, mightymouse, BachFan

          my paternal grandfather worked 2 shifts as a crane operator, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year for years to support his own family and his widowed sister-in-law's family. They did manage to move to 40 acres with a barn, chickens and a big garden. Those were tough times.

          The only thing good to be said if we head back to that time is that people are resourceful and dystopia isn't the only trajectory. Although not ideal by any stretch of the imagination, with a bit of creativity new communities/new economies could blossom from the ground up as people learn to barter with their neighbors for goods and services.

          "Let us not look back to the past with anger, nor towards the future with fear, but look around with awareness." James Thurber

          by annan on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 09:59:55 AM PDT

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        •  my mother's parents (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          BachFan, Eric Nelson, billlaurelMD

          were lucky - he worked for the USPS. And they also lived at the edge of town and had enough room for a garden and a cow.

          My father's parents had a dairy, but his mother worked for a while as a county home agent: she'd go around and teach people how to get more from their garden and their chickens or rabbits. We still have a recipe she got for 'chili sauce' (it's a tomato-and-sweet-pepper relish).

          (Is it time for the pitchforks and torches yet?)

          by PJEvans on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 07:04:06 PM PDT

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      •  Grapes of Wrath (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JesseCW, billlaurelMD

        just saw a fabulous production at Trinity Rep Theater here in Providence (if you're within driving distance, see it -- it's been held over due to demand). It's stunning how contemporary it feels.

    •  Massive Farm Foreclosures thru 1935 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      JesseCW, billlaurelMD

      Know your FDR speeches, so you dont get caught making stuff up.

      .................expect us......................... FDR 9-23-33, "If we cannot do this one way, we will do it another way. But do it we will.

      by Roger Fox on Tue Oct 08, 2013 at 02:50:41 PM PDT

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