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View Diary: The Democratic message: We're willing to talk, but not in response to bullying or tantrums (57 comments)

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  •  I just hope they won't cave (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Laurence Lewis

    Again

    Happy just to be alive

    by exlrrp on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 06:39:33 AM PDT

    •  They can't cave, that's what's different. (7+ / 0-)

      Caving means giving up OCare for another year.  Sounds reasonable on the face, but given as it is already law, Obama would essentially be allowing the Repubs the power of the Executive and allowing them to bypass the Senate.

      It literally would be the end of American Democracy as understood and practiced for over 200 years.

      Caving would mean the Democrats nolonger had the Executive or the Senate.  It would elminate all Dem Representatives and even neuter the few GOP moderates.

      If he caved, Obama would be surrendering the right to govern as would any Democratic successor.

      That is what the GOP hasn't realized and can't understand.

      Tax and Spend I can understand. I can even understand Borrow and Spend. But Borrow and give Billionaires tax cuts? That I have a problem with.

      by LiberalCanuck on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 06:49:31 AM PDT

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      •  What makes the Repubs think they can do this (0+ / 0-)

        is partly because they've gotten away with it before. Obama and the Dems have backed down or compromised before. if they hadn't, we wouldn't be here now, I'm pretty sure.Too many examples to list but start with sunsetting the Bush Tax cuts---which Obama had made an election promise. And previous debt limit fights.
        They have the advantage because they are in this for their own personal aggrandizement, which knows no limits.  Obama and the D's are fighting this with the nation at their backs, so they can't make a mistake----which, with the Obama administration means calling for an excess of caution.
        I have to say that altho I'm still an Obama supporter, the guy is just  not very bold. He's not really a strong leader on a personal level, out there pounding the pavements and buttonholing people. He works largely through others.
        republicans are just nastier than he is, more willking to go for the jugular and they know it.

        Like you, I think this is an all or nothing situation. If they back down, or even compromise in any way, they're ceding the government to the barbarians. But that doesn't mean they look at it that way.
        The Repubs think they can get him to cave or compromise because they've done it before. The law of unintended consequences on previous compromises.
        I hope they don't back down, I really do, but all my hopes have been so cruelly dashed so many times before. The fact that we don't have single payer speaks to that and in this exact context too.

        Happy just to be alive

        by exlrrp on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:09:16 AM PDT

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        •  oops, to finsh the line (0+ / 0-)

          should be: "The law of unintended consequences on previous compromises has finally caught up with them."

          Happy just to be alive

          by exlrrp on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:12:53 AM PDT

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        •  Actually, it was Clinton who started the... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Onomastic

          shut down tactic to achieve political ends.  When the D's were in opposition they flirted with the idea but never used it.

          It also isn't correct to compare this with 2011.  Then what was being negotiated wasn't the established law, passed by both houses and approved the SCOTUS and already implemented.  Then it was the Bush tax cuts, and if recall, the D's got quite a bit more than increased taxes on those earning over $400k.  

          It is popular to say the D's "caved" but then the R's say that about Boehner too, so that sounds like both sides actually compromised and got a little something each.

          As I said above, this is not the same animal at all.  The GOP is nolonger run by the Speaker but by the Tea Party, and the TP won't give up anything.  They don't make offers, they make demands.  There is nothing the D's could offer in exchange for repealing OCare that would reopen government even if they were willing to negotiate while government was shut down.  All they can give to end the shut down is repealing OCare; or in other words, handing over the reins of government to the minority of the minority.

          They can't, even if they wanted too.

          Tax and Spend I can understand. I can even understand Borrow and Spend. But Borrow and give Billionaires tax cuts? That I have a problem with.

          by LiberalCanuck on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:39:39 AM PDT

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          •  Anything's possible when you make the rules (0+ / 0-)

            or when you can find the Magic Loophole (like the Platinum Coin concept)
            I'm really hoping you're right but see above
            I wish I had your confidence but there's plenty of history of backing down and compromising in a variety of different circumstances to look at.
            And the latest thing was Syria. The red line turned out not to be so red or so much a line after all. he was talked out of a strike (Thank God!) which it really  seemed like he was intent on doing. I was not impressed by his dedication to what I thought would be such a wrongheaded thing to do.

            And I think it would be wrong to back down or compromise on this.

            Happy just to be alive

            by exlrrp on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 01:14:06 PM PDT

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    •  The political environment is totally different. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Onomastic

      In 2011, going into the debe ceiling talks, the Republicans were the more popular party, they had just won an election convincingly, they were setting the terms of the political discourse, and the public was evenly split on who to blame for the impasse. Remember when they were saying, "We campaigned against raising the debt ceiling, and we won, so we should follow through on what the public voted for?"

      That has all changed. The Republicans are hugely unpopular, the Democrats much more popular, the Democrats just won the election, the Republican line is discredited, and the public has decisively come around to blaming the Republicans for impasses.

      Politics matters in politics. In 2011, the Republicans' political victory meant they were going to be able to shift policy in their direction somewhat, and the name of the game for Democrats was to cut losses. In 2013, they have no such backing, and there is no impetus for the Democrats to give up anything.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Wed Oct 09, 2013 at 07:12:51 AM PDT

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      •  OK (0+ / 0-)
        In 2013, they have no such backing, and there is no impetus for the Democrats to give up anything.
        So why are we talking about concessions for right after this shutdown is over?

        Banking on the American people to be able to sort all this out and declare the adult in the room the winner is a very big bet. -Digby

        by Boogalord on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 09:24:10 AM PDT

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