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View Diary: Green diary rescue: 150th coal plant to close, the shutdown and food safety (37 comments)

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  •  While not an industry expert. but informed (0+ / 0-)

    I do not think I need to write the author asking for more information.

    The ascertain that coal is being displaced by renewable is a little silly.

    Coal 37%
    Natural Gas 30%

    Solar 0.11%
    Wind 3.46%

    There is simply not enough renewable usage in exsistance  to have had a meaningful impact on

    Million Kilowatthours
    coal        -----  1,733,430
    nat gas   -----  1,013,689
    solar       -----  1,818
    wind       -----   120,177

    coal          ----- 1,517,203
    nat gas    ----- 1,230,708
    solar         ----- 4,342
    wind         ------140,089

    total change
    coal          ~  -220,000
    nat gas    ~   222,000
    solar         ~  0
    wind         ~    20,000

    Solar and wind have in the lifetime of their exsistance , had less of an effect on the reduction in the usage of coal, than natural gas has had in a single year.

    I am a big big fan of R&D being put into renewables. I myself did my masters thesis on fusion power generation.

    But anyone who says that renewables have had a meaningful effect on reducing coal usage at this point has no clue what they are talking about.

    •  You are right about the 2010-2012 reduction. But (3+ / 0-)

      for the current round of closures - which will translate into mix changes a few years down the road - renewables have played an increasing role.

      You probably missed the news a few weeks ago, that wind was the #1 source among all US new installations in 2012.

      •  Increasing yes. Significant not yet. (0+ / 0-)

        not even close.

        I will repost the second link from above. At the bottom there is some addtional data for 2013.

        There has been no meaningful change in renewable usage for the first 6 months of 2013 compared to 2012.

        91,497 to  76,195 for wind.  delta 15,000. 30,000 annually. but still small beans.

        Increasing yes. But the amounts are still insignificant compared to  to natural gas and coal.

        Also I would point out that having wind be the largest source of new installations is not at meaningful as you may assume. That is important, but not the be-all end all.

        More marginal power generation can come from existing.
         sources.  If in 2014 we need more power than 2013. You dont have to build more plants. A lot of that new power comes from existing locations, and just running the current plants a higher % of the time.

        I do not have the exact numbers but I would wager that the majority of  any increase in generation  capacity will still come from using fossil fuels.

      •  The new EPA clear-air standard will make coal more (0+ / 0-)

        expensive, and that's having way more effect than falling price of renewables.

        [the EPA regs] would require future coal-fired plants to limit emissions of carbon dioxide to 1,100 pounds per megawatt hour (MWh). The average U.S. coal-fired plant currently emits nearly 1,800 pounds per MWh. Large combined cycle natural gas plants producing at least 850 megawatts of electricity would be limited to 1,000 pounds per MWh, while smaller plants could emit up to 1,100 pounds per MWh. The new proposal replaces an earlier standard issued in 2012 that would have required all types of facilities to limit emissions to 1,000 pounds per MWh. (Link)
        The technology to capture CO2 from the smokestack is dubious and untested. The technology to get more energy from less coal (thus reducing the CO2 per megawatt) is more expensive than demolishing an aging coal plant and replacing it with a shiny new natural gas plant.

        It was smart of Team Obama to add CO2 to the existing framework of clean-air regs rather than launch a new frontal assault to "stop global warming".

        But the "150th coal plant to close" will be replaced by a natural gas plant that will still kick out 60% as much CO2 as the old plant did.

        A 40% reduction with no loss to baseload capacity is laudable... but much work remains to be done.

        “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing
        he was never reasoned into” - Jonathan Swift

        by jjohnjj on Sat Oct 12, 2013 at 06:26:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  "is more expensive than demolishing an aging coal" (0+ / 0-)

          thats the way to change.

          I am not as knowledgeable about the laws recently put in place as I should be.

          But things like this.... The things which cause real change. Are completely not understood by the masses.

          Both on the left and the right.

          That is fine. I really do not expect (not should I) the masses to get it all.

          But I am always deeply and truly disappointed by the second level information providers. We have people here pushing recommended blogs with  information which is complete crap.

          The idea for websites like this is that every one gets to post their opinion, and hopeful the informed gets to float to the top.

          That is not what is happening.

          Even if I disagree with Meteor Blades. I tend to have some respect for what he/she, as they read the comments and interact in an attempt to either inform or get informed.

          But when quotes from that crap sierra club post rise to the top. The people doing the filtering are letting the universe down.

          Your single post contained more information than that multi page diatribe originally sourced.

        •  True, but not yet in place. The cost of ... (1+ / 0-)

          ...delivering coal itself is higher because east of the Mississippi coal now comes from a depleted resource ever more expensive to get out of the ground even when economically (but not environmentally) cheaper methods like mountaintop removal are used.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Sun Oct 13, 2013 at 02:04:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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