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View Diary: Town Burns (alleged) Rape Victim's home (321 comments)

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      •  Maybe not just our boys (55+ / 0-)

        It's possible that this is the pack mentality that is fostered in the super-hormonal arena of "sports." When we see the New Jersey high school athletic director and coach using school phones to tweet to each other about their basest desires, and think nothing wrong with it, we get a peek into the tribal world where rules are defined by a very, very retrograde and artificial picture of masculine and feminine.

        That febrile microcosm then meets up with the socially licensed spectacle of "true to your school" and "team spirit" that is just one tossed brick short of Orwell's "hate hour." The licensing business and the business of cheer is now enormous, and what seems like a wink to you and me -- a commercial that pretends to appeal to our ironic sense of wanting to "tailgate" for "the big game" -- is not ironic, but deadly serious on the small scale and among the young and unsophisticated.

        Sports, where "man" is whatever is worst in desires
             +
        Community, where "team spirit" is a form of self
             +
        Team, where social functions of purgation and cohesion are performed by ritual
             =
        Mob madness and suffering

        Everyone's innocent of some crime.

        by The Geogre on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 04:11:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  yeah no (9+ / 0-)

          this is an individual problem with people.

          It isn't a problem with sports itself.  Millions and millions of people play sports, and it doesn't lead them to rape anyone, or treat anyone badly, or do anything wrong.

          There are certainly societal problems here, but it isn't a sports problem.  Those folks would still be potential rapists if they spent their youths playing competitive monopoly.

          I can agree that we overemphasize non-academic accomplishments to a really high level, but most people who play sports don't remotely reach that level.

          •  Dream on (22+ / 0-)

            If you really believe that high school sports don't breed an atmosphere of sexual entitlement, then you aren't very good at paying attention.  And no, it isn't extra-curricular activity, you don't hear this about the debate teams or the 4-H.

            Clap On, Clap Off, The Clapper!

            by ActivistGuy on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 11:31:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I'm not so sure. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              MHB, alice kleeman

              Is there a statistical connection between athletes and crime, or sex crimes? Because we know that, for example, professional football players have lower rates of criminal activity than society as a whole. There is no doubt that in certain sports, in certain areas, players are treated differently than other students, and that can lead to a sense that the normal rules don't apply. I absolutely think that's a bad thing, and something that should be eliminated, but I am not convinced the jocks are any more dangerous or criminally-oriented than other young men.

              •  The NFL also still has beddy-by checks (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Lujane

                for away games. True, the coaches are hard asses but it works.

                Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one.--Sam Rayburn

                by Ice Blue on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 12:20:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  exactly (4+ / 0-)

                just like with the military, the idea that there are certain sectors of society that if we just fix them, then it will fix the problems of sexual assault misses that the problem is pervasive and cuts across everything.

                Sports, the military, all are just representative samples of society writ large.

              •  muscle + testosterone + high status = rape (9+ / 0-)

                Jocks rape because they know they can.  First of all, they're bigger and stronger than not only the girl, but most anyone who might stand up for her as well.  Secondly, they've got a natural "roid rage" thing going on thanks to genetics and an active lifestyle, so even if they weren't twice your size, they're still more willing and able to hurt you.  And finally and perhaps most importantly, everyone loves them.  Nobody wants to see the hometown heroes get taken down by anyone, not least by a girl - [paraphrasing]"What respect have her talents won for the school and the town lately?"[/paraphrasing].  Also, nobody wants to piss off the alpha male coach, sheriff, mayor, local businessmen and politicians, etc. whose son(s) are doubly motivated to press their competitive advantages over everyone else.  

                Domestic politics is the continuation of civil war by other means.

                by Visceral on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 01:27:36 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Of the things listed - it's the status IMO (11+ / 0-)

                  Rape is about abuse of power and rank - not sports, muscles and testosterone.  Any system that supports the notion that some people are exceptional and have power over other people is a system that supports this kind of violence.  Making it about muscles and testosterone actually just gives an unnecessary excuse.

                  ANd, at least according to this study, testosterone levels do not matter.

                  Howard Dean will always be my president.

                  by 4democracy on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 02:28:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I have to second this (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    4democracy, churchylafemme

                    my very limited experience in this field was interrupting some unwanted touching going on in a small, shared-gender anteroom between the gym and the lockers. I am a fairly large person and can lift twice my body weight, but my reflexes are poor so I never did well in sports. That somehow tagged me as the bad guy with everyone who was aware of the incident, except the girl who I "rescued" (I maintain that she would've been more or less fine without me), who nevertheless at the time thanked me very quietly in private and not at all in public. This confused me greatly at the time. But yes, it's a matter of status (social strength) rather than physical strength.

                    I am an electrical engineer, run a reasonably high traffic server, and build autopilots and drones for a living. If you have technical questions, ask away and I will try to give a cogent answer.

                    by spiritplumber on Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 02:35:41 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  This is school socialization (0+ / 0-)

                  we don't want in our family, thanks.  

                  Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                  by tikkun on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:13:44 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  conversely (0+ / 0-)

                the higher incidences of concussion injuries lead more pro football players towards violent tendencies. Gettin' knocked around in the nugget may be bad for other people's health, too...

                How does the Republican Congress sit down with all the butthurt over taxing the wealthy?

                by athenap on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:39:50 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Given 40,000 high schools in the US... (0+ / 0-)

              ...I'd be very interested to hear your sources for such a sweeping generalization.

              The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

              by wesmorgan1 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 02:18:33 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  You miss me in your defense (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AuroraDawn, tikkun

            You defend "sports," but sports were not under attack. Sports of the American high school model were under attack.

            Of course millions are not criminal, but that's not the same thing as fine.

            Culturally, we in the US have known about our problem with the overheating of high school sports for two or three generations -- from "Everybody's All American" to whichever Lifetime movie of the week you'd like, the cultural indicators are clear enough that there is a malady present.

            The high school soccer team rarely gets caught up in this stuff, because the problem is not participating in athletics, but in the focus on "the team." For one place, it's the baseball team, for another, it's the basketball team, for most, it's the football team. Whatever the individual group, the problem is the focus that is commercial and cultural that then redefines the parameters of allowable behavior and refocuses identity. That is the problem.

            (I was all state in debate, myself, and a state champion in the Junior Classical League.)

            Everyone's innocent of some crime.

            by The Geogre on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 12:41:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  sure that's the same thing as fine (6+ / 0-)

              when the vast majority of folks in an endeavor are not a problem, odds are that endeavor is not a problem.

              The problem is the treatment of women period, it is not the sports model, it is the human model of treating women as objects to be used and that is PERVASIVE in all aspects of modern life.

              •  In which case it's air and thought and. . . (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AuroraDawn, tikkun, DarthMeow504

                When you get so nebulous as to retreat into "treating women as objects to be used is the problem," then you have retreated into vapor. Another commenter thinks that it's "prudish" to object to masculine hypertrophy, as that's anti-sex.

                Adolescent male sexuality is marked by astonishing subjectivity and hyperactive sex drive. Take the two together, and sex is a thing to get, and the bearer of the sex is a symbolic object to the adolescent. Maturity is getting past this blindness. While a grown man will recognize the error of this fragmentation, for you to say, "Gosh, we need to tell boys to think better, but pay no attention to all the attention the team is getting, pay no attention to how the town is identifying itself with the athletes, not notice how the success of the athletes is tantamount to the success of the community, and institute this corrective," is just wishing for a perfect world. Worse, it's refusing to address the real one in the meantime.

                How will we "train our boys better" when their coaches are allowing the most gonadal to behave most barbarically? You just said that it wasn't "sport" that was the problem but the parents. How will we "teach them" to be thinking of the full rights of women, if we allow towns to put The Warriors' great victory on page one, with Top Prospect's valuable contributions in a full story, regardless of his statutory rape allegations? Remember: sport is not the problem, and the team is not the problem, and capitalism is not the problem, only parenting and boyhood mistaught by unenlightened parents.

                I don't mean to be harsh, but this kind of "change the thinking of the boys" stuff seems awfully, awfully weak tea when we're faced with monetary interests and established cultures that are on the other side which you refuse to see because you believe it will besmirch "sport."

                Everyone's innocent of some crime.

                by The Geogre on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 02:32:41 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I like your focus on the systemic issues rather (0+ / 0-)

                  than the personal.

                  That tendency of people to personally identify with a victim or alleged perp is a serious problem we have - our problems are not individualistic, they are collective and systemic.

                  Pushing systemic blame off onto the individual seems to be a cottage industry in political and civic discussions these days. Through focusing on personal attributes: corruption, greed, testosterone levels of people and not on the persistent or ubiquitous situation or systemic byproduct change is stymied.

                  I believe that the flaws of humanity are often used as a shield to protect the Establishment and that corporate media presses us participate in that scapegoating.

                  And this is surely not to absolve kids from personal responsibility for abusing young teens, or congresspeople from selling their votes, they are surely to blame. My point is that when assigning blame for action to solve the problem that our obvious systemic problems should be a major focus in the diagnosis, prevention and treatment of the problem.

                  Peace~

                  Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

                  by k9disc on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 10:25:48 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  There IS A Problem. (9+ / 0-)

                When my daughter, not a cheerleader, won the questionable, Homecoming crown, because she was on what others perceived as their turf, she was knocked down in the hall, catcalled, threatened with further harm when she was interviewed on a radio show.  Letters were written to the editor of the small town paper and the city paper about how she was trampling the "sacred" tradition of the school.  This was all around one group connected with one sport that was the pride of the school.  Students were required to go to rallies on Fridays where the same people were presented to the crowd as school heroes and heroines week after week, while everyone sat in the bleachers unrecognized, unheralded, unvalued.  THAT IS A PROBLEM.

                Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                by tikkun on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:20:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  Slightly prudish (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MHB, alice kleeman, spiritplumber

          to mark off sexual desires and talk of it as 'base'. More like natural. It's how a person acts out toward others that matters.

          And your scope is extremely limited if you think pack mentality is generated among sports lovers, if you haven't looked at human pack behavior in heterosexual groups, racist groups, political groups and so on.

          http://callatimeout.blogspot.com/ Jesus Loves You. Keep pointing out others. You're most likely the problem.

          by DAISHI on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 11:11:39 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  One after another (5+ / 0-)

            people here are lining up to proclaim the youth athletesd as above criticism.  Why in the world should we be surprised then when the girl's house gets burned down?

            Welcome to Steubenkos.

            Clap On, Clap Off, The Clapper!

            by ActivistGuy on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 11:35:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Base indeed (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AuroraDawn, tikkun

            Please read my comment again.

            The most base desires are used as the definition.

            I.e. an exaggerated form of the normal male sexual desire are claimed as the center of male desire.

            Please do not criticize me for a prudishness that I certainly lack. I said, to repeat again, that in these circumstances of over-attentiveness and capitalization the normally exaggerated male sexuality that is a feature of adolescence is then further exaggerated (do I need to defend this, too? it's a process of competition found in adolescence as boys try to prove themselves more male than their peers, and it's normal), and this gets to pass as a normal or centered value. The corrective pressures that would exist in another setting are gone. Additionally, because there is a localized sense of cultural identity involved, challenges to the expression of the "team" become challenges to the town/community.

            Of all the things I've been called, this is the first time in half a century "prude" has been one of them.

            Everyone's innocent of some crime.

            by The Geogre on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 12:46:35 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Right, right... (0+ / 0-)

              ...and this applies to all 35-40,000 high schools in the US because football, right?

              The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

              by wesmorgan1 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 02:22:46 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Did I say so? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AuroraDawn

                I find that you have read a great many things that I have not had the honor of writing, and yet which you give me the attribution to. I cannot answer to them.

                Everyone's innocent of some crime.

                by The Geogre on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 02:35:25 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, your sweeping generalizations did say that. (0+ / 0-)

                  You wrote:

                  in these circumstances of over-attentiveness and capitalization the normally exaggerated male sexuality that is a feature of adolescence is then further exaggerated (do I need to defend this, too? it's a process of competition found in adolescence as boys try to prove themselves more male than their peers, and it's normal), and this gets to pass as a normal or centered value. The corrective pressures that would exist in another setting are gone.
                  You seem to make it quite clear, both here and in other comments, that you consider these "circumstances" endemic among male athletes and male high school sports teams.

                  The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

                  by wesmorgan1 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 06:06:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  It Applies To (0+ / 0-)

                at least 90% of the high schools in the country.  It might be basketball in some highschools.  Depends on where the high schools get their identity.

                Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                by tikkun on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:28:57 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I was thinking about your pep rally comment... (0+ / 0-)

                  I was a jock, a pretty popular guy too - definitely a top 10 athlete & top ten smartypants in a school of 1300.

                  I was pretty cool until I stopped playing football in high school and was immediately de-popularized and ostracized.

                  Thank God I was always nice to people. I was friendly with the geeks and dorks, we shared ideas and loved to learn, so when I was ostracized from the cool crew I had a soft social landing.

                  Then when my seasons were in session I was kind of cool again. It was an important lesson for me.

                  I was able to sit in the stands for those pep rallies. It was kind of a joke, really. "Yea, pep rally! no class..." messing around in the hallways, being late for class, sneaking out early for lunch and stuff.

                  But when you posted the pep rally and your daughter's trouble it made me recall how silly it all was, and how meaningless the cool people really were.

                  Almost like how smart good people look at politics and pop culture today. That is super fascinating to me.

                  Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

                  by k9disc on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 10:38:35 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  I'm SO tired of hearing this. (0+ / 0-)

          Can we PLEASE get off the "SPORTS IZ EVIL" bandwagon?

          Coaches don't create kids like these - the parents do.

          Yes, coaches can be "bad influences," but so can teachers, band directors, and administrators - do I need to provide examples?  Heck, marching bands have a hazing problem that goes back decades and routinely injures (and even kills) students, but no one calls for the abolition of those programs.

          The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

          by wesmorgan1 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 01:40:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Other groups have problems (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            WakeUpNeo, Sharoney

            those problems tend not to be written off for other groups like they are for the heroes of the high school.  I wouldn't let my daughter date high school football players because the problems of drinking, drugs and pressured sex plus real and horrible bullying of young men and women who didn't make the "grade" with the football crowd was epidemic in foot ball programs throughout our whole region.  

            Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

            by tikkun on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:33:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I repeat - it isn't the school, it isn't the town. (0+ / 0-)

              It's the parents.

              I'm sick and tired of seeing sports treated as the boogeyman.  The simple fact of the matter is that parents aren't doing their jobs.  

              That's true whether we're talking about cheerleader pimps, cheating scandals, soccer-team sexual-abuse hazing, cheerleader beatdowns, marching band hazing/assaults...heck, just do a Google search for "high school hazing" and you'll soon see that this is hardly limited to athletic teams.

              It's time we drop the convenience of attacking sports and (at least rhetorically) hold parents accountable.

              The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

              by wesmorgan1 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 06:02:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Wes Morgan (0+ / 0-)

                When a school requires all students to attend pep rallies and then trot out the same girls and boys week after week to be adulated as heroes while the rest of the students are in the bleachers, some of them unsung, unrecognized, and unvalued on any level, the school is the problem.  Believe me, I'm not letting the parents off the hook but the schools that do this create dangerous mob values.  PERIOD.  While home coming queen competitions and cheer leading activities are relatively benign in the context of the sports setting, they still contributes to the notion that physical attractiveness and physical prowess are superior qualities, not just nice qualities or pleasant qualities, mind you, but superior qualities..and all part and parcel of the rest of the crap that has grown up around two or three school sports. Pep Rallies, cheerleading, homecoming courts, and a consistent subset of sporting games are all allied activities.  

                Hazing is never acceptable in any situation but hazing on the sports scene is justified and supported by the adults in charge and NOT just by the parents.

                Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                by tikkun on Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 08:28:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wouldn't know... (0+ / 0-)

                  ...we don't do regular pep rallies.
                  ...we award letters (as in 'letter jackets') for GPA.
                  ...we don't "adulate as heroes."
                  ...we hang banners for ACT scores, just like sports titles.
                  ...we have a football team that supports Live the Green Dot.
                  ...need I go on?

                  We've had our share of athletic success (state titles in multiple sports, individual titles in track, national title in cheerleading), but athletes aren't worshipped.  Why?  Because the school recognizes achievements by ALL its students; at most, the athlete is seen as the equal of the musician, the academic or the thespian.  We celebrate Eagle Scouts, All-State musicians, and Governor's Scholars just as much as we do athletic successes.  Sure, we have individual incidents with individual students, but nothing approaching team hazing or group sexual assault.

                  All I'm saying is that for every school like the one described here, there's one like ours.  I find it amazing that so many people here are comfortable passing judgment on 35-40 THOUSAND high schools with such dismissive rhetorical waves of the hand.  No one in their right mind would say "oh, there's no gang problem at this high school, so there are no gang problems at any schools," but most of the commenters on this thread seem quite happy to say "the football team at this high school is bad, so all high school football teams are bad."

                  Sheesh.

                  The word "parent" is supposed to be a VERB, people...

                  by wesmorgan1 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 12:50:38 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Wow. Just wow. (15+ / 0-)

        24 recs for a comment saying this is a Republican problem; 14 recs for a comment saying it's a society problem.

        Sometimes this site . . . disappoints me.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 06:34:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Don't you get it? This site is for electing (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sideboth

          "more and better Democrats", so anything bad that happens which we can blame on republicans is fair game.

          •  The sad thing is (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sideboth, fl1972, MHB, TrebLoc

            I don't know whether or not you're snarking.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 06:50:48 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  corvo, (16+ / 0-)

          the town is a poster child for Tea Party thought (and action).  some of us lived there, we know.  and many who live in Kansas and Missouri also know.   the area has a pretty sordid history.   this new chapter comes as no surprise.

          "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

          by kj in missouri on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 06:53:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm well aware of that. (16+ / 0-)

            I'm also well aware of the fact that most rapists aren't exactly known for their political affiliations, and that rape culture is hardly limited to areas where that other political party holds sway.

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:00:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i agree with you, and also (43+ / 0-)

              understand rape culture flourishes in places exactly like Nodaway County for reasons it would take a thesis to explain.   it was one of the most ignorant places i've ever known, despite it's university.   the kind of place where a black person gets chased onto a roof and then burned to death.   the kind of place where people are shot dead in broad day light in front of witnesses and no one is prosecuted.  the kind of place where the professors teach creationism.  the kind of place that, despite dwindling population, doesn't want a new research center, which means new people and their tax dollars, if they come from places like California.    and more.  much, much more.

              rape culture is not limited to places where Republicans hold sway.   but a whole lot of dark thought and action flourishes where Hatred for Other, clothed in Republicanism, holds sway.

              "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

              by kj in missouri on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:12:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What we have to really keep in mind (38+ / 0-)

                Is that in these areas women are significantly devalued.  Access to birth control, choice and more are simply not there because society in these places they have decided to codify it as such.

                When you take these actions, when you devalue women and when you basically say that these kind of things are ok.. because what does it matter.

                It isn't political, it's cultural.   Once you setup the culture, you can't be surprised at the outcome

                Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                by Chris Reeves on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:29:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  agree 100%, it is cultural (16+ / 0-)

                  i'm not arguing against that point.   the culture is clothed in a self-rightousness that is dubbed Republicanism, just as it is dubbed Christian.   the American Taliban as Kos dubbed it.

                  rape culture is not limited to places where Republicans hold sway.   but a whole lot of dark thought and action flourishes where Hatred for Other, clothed in Republicanism, holds sway.
                  btw, tmservo433, i thoroughly appreciate what you do here to represent this part of the country.  i try not to miss anything you post and just want to give you a belated thanks for being here.   if there is ever a meet-up, i hope to get a chance to chat.

                  "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                  by kj in missouri on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:38:01 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There will be on in Columbia, MO (5+ / 0-)

                    We were supposed to do it in September, but it was delayed.  We're planning middle-November now.  I'm just trying to book a restaurant.  We had real confusion at the one in Lawrence, because the restaurant didn't keep track of our group and that was.. bad.   So, I'm working on that ;)

                    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                    by Chris Reeves on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:06:28 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Columbia! (3+ / 0-)

                      one of my all time favorite towns!   i'm in!   tons of restaurants downtown.   jumping in here with a suggestion... might want to think about holding it on a weekend that isn't a home game as hotels and restaurants are overwhelmed.  just talked to a friend of mine yesterday about coming for a visit... November 9, 16 and 23 are away games.  

                      this is very exciting.   i'm so there.

                      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                      by kj in missouri on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:27:42 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  and... (4+ / 0-)

                      it's gotta be downtown.   that's where the liberal vibe is alive, well, flourishing and all that.  

                      i'm in for anything in Lawrence, also.   have never been there, told it has Columbia beat.

                      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                      by kj in missouri on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:30:01 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  The Rome (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      tmservo433

                      is pretty much dead center on 9th Street.
                      it's owned by an Italian family from Boston and needless to say, the food is fantastic and the prices are reasonable.

                      it's a fairly large space, i would imagine if anyone in town was willing to book a reservation, they would be all over it.

                      "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                      by kj in missouri on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:08:47 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Unlike say, the Kennedys? (5+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Mike732, martydd, BlackSheep1, hmi, Utahrd

                  Has any clan been less culturally deprived and devalued women more?

                  Good Democrats, though.

                  I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

                  by itsjim on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:50:37 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I rec'd that (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    itsjim, hmi, Mikey, LilPeach, churchylafemme

                    because it's just silly to say rape is a Republican problem. That's a Tea Party-level oversimplification, a wish-villification for an all-too-male attitude. Is the Pakistani rape culture Republican? Is Julian Assange a member of the Tea Party now? Hell, are you sure YOUR son, nephew or father hasn't raped anyone, lately? Gun violence, rape, it's an American problem. It's a world problem. Blaming a class for it is almost as wrong-headed and wrong-hearted as blaming the victims.

                    Because, if no one reports on patent absurdities, today's absurdity becomes tomorrow's reality.

                    by Mike732 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:12:18 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The comment you rec'd is nothing but hate-bait (9+ / 0-)

                      and totally off-topic.

                      Furthermore, the "rape is a Republican problem" statement arises from the intrinsic authoritarian nature of Republicans and their relentless war on women.

                      And the new crop of Republican-Teabaggers-NeoConfederates are even more lethal in their hatred.

                      Read TPM's post about the Republican manly-man running Lonegan's campaign. He believes that he is "all man" and so virile in his misogyny mindset. He just lets it all hang out because he actually thinks the world revolves around his neaderthalism.

                      And then read Cory Booker's response to that ignorant hatred from that Republican top aide. What it means to be a man and how we as a society need to condemn the thoughts of this narrow group of neanderthals.


                      One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. --Carl Jung

                      by bronte17 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:38:55 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Citing incidents (0+ / 0-)

                        Means nothing from a statistical perspective. How do two incidents validate incriminating half the voting population?

                        http://callatimeout.blogspot.com/ Jesus Loves You. Keep pointing out others. You're most likely the problem.

                        by DAISHI on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 11:13:38 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  First of all, Republicans do not comprise half (3+ / 0-)

                          the voting population.

                          Democrats outnumber Republicans by like 34% to 27%. And people are fleeing the Greedy Overbearing Party in droves. 40% of the population now claims to be "Independent."

                          The only reason Republicans rule the roost in the House is the disproportionate gerrymandering of the wide swaths of territory in the US and the outdated representation system. We need to enlarge Congress to meet the substantially increased population and the majority of that is in urban centers.

                          And I can't provide links because the damn Census Bureau is "closed until further notice." Part and parcel of the US government shutdown by Republicans.

                          Secondly, the Republican Party has consistently waged war against women, children, education, science, technology, minorities, and national security.

                          Republicans earned the scorn and they deserve even more scorn.


                          One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. --Carl Jung

                          by bronte17 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 12:40:02 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  Thank you. (8+ / 0-)

                      So many people here are willing to overlook or excuse sex crimes if the perpetrator is "one of ours", while acting all high and mighty about it when a Republican is caught.

                      It's called "rape culture" because this exusing of rape and defending of "rapists we like" is pervasive.  Far more pervasive than most people are willing to accept.  Most people know the statistics that about 30% of women will be raped at least once in their lifetime.  They don't generally internalize what that means, though, especially in terms of the rate of perpetrators.  It's not just one guy out there raping millions of people.  I've seen three different studies that attempt to estimate the prevalence of rapists in the male population, and they all come up with figures in the ballpark of 10% having committed rape at least once, with about a third of them having done it multiple times.  Such studies are surprisingly easy to do, because most rapists are more than willing to confess to rape if you don't use the word rape, and simply describe situations that are rape and ask if they've done them.

                      These are huge numbers.  30% of women being raped.  10% of men raping at least once, 3% of men being serial rapists.  Think of your friends, your family.  Now apply these statistics and think of how many rape victims and rapists are among them.

                      Yet people don't want to think about it.  They deny the hell out of it.  When they admit it, most of the time it's an admission of, "But not me or mine!"  Even when they damn well know better.  No, it's "if they're not convicted, it didn't happen".

                      But of course, the vast, overwhelming majority are not convicted.  Because the standard is "proof beyond a reasonable doubt", and how the hell do you prove that you were raped beyond a reasonable doubt in the vast majority of situations?  Most victims don't even bother reporting - it just brings a new kind of hell down on them.

                      IMHO, that standard is totally bogus.  "She consented" should be treated as an affirmative defense, the same as "I'm insane" or "it was self defense" in murder trials, and thus meet a preponderance of evidence or clear and convincing evidence standard.  The justice system exists to strike a balance between the rights of the accused and the public interest in securing justice.  When the bar swings too far in one direction, the scales of justice are imbalanced.  When 10% of the male population are rapists and 30% of the female population victims, yet only the tiniest fraction of rapists are convicted, and there's no evidence of an overconviction on false rape charges (which there isn't, in the least), then the bar has swung too far on the side of rapists and against their victims.  And it calls for remedy.  

                      Já þýðir já. Nei þýðir nei. Hvað er svona erfitt við það?

                      by Rei on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:08:13 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't, Mike 732, give a damn what Assange's (3+ / 0-)

                      Tea Party credentials are or are not.
                      Serial liar, coward, and accused rapist? Check.
                      Hero? Not so much by a long damn chalk.
                      Assange belongs in jail -- and it has nothing at all to do with Wikileaks.
                      It has to do with sexual assaults.

                      LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                      by BlackSheep1 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:52:35 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Sheer vile hatred in your comment (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kj in missouri, MHB, AuroraDawn

                    and stupidity of the teabagger level. Your own sig line pretty much verifies that.

                    Few families have done more for their fellow citizen than the Kennedy family. They served their country militarily, economically, politically and, most importantly, humanly.

                    The Kennedys brought hope and visions for a better future for everyone. It was one of their hallmarks... for an inclusive government and society where everyone had opportunity to achieve their fullest potential.


                    One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. --Carl Jung

                    by bronte17 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:20:02 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Vile hatred? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      churchylafemme

                      Wow. That's a little strong.  

                      I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

                      by itsjim on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:59:20 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm going to nominate the Rmoneys for that (5+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      MHB, bronte17, AuroraDawn, tikkun, Sharoney

                      discussion.  And many other rich, Republican clans.  Yes, the Kennedy's have had multiple issues that wound up in court, but AFAIK they were individual acts, perpetuated against individuals.  The type of actions the privileged like the Rmoneys and their ilk perpetuate are against whole swaths of society, whole swaths of people like women, like minorities, like those of other religions.

                    •  Actually, The Kennedy Men Had Nothing But (0+ / 0-)

                      contempt for women.  You don't have to look very far to find that information verified.  What is also true is that they weren't the only ones in DC with contempt for women.  The number of politicians who treated women with respect was far lower than the number of them that didn't.

                      All that said, the Republicans are the only party that openly states their contempt for women and that is a huge indicator of their real attitude as a group about women.  

                      Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                      by tikkun on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:45:43 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The Kennedys improved women's lives exponentially (0+ / 0-)

                        The Kennedys' energies resulted in the dramatic improvement of women's lives.  

                        The Kennedys affected legislation that entitled women to equal opportunity and not just healthcare which so many Republicans deny us. The Kennedys support women fully in all realms.

                        JFK established the Presidential Commission on the Status of Women by Executive Order 10980 on December 14, 1961.  Eleanor Roosevelt chaired the Commission. The PCSW influenced the creation of the National Organization of Women (NOW).

                        Teddy Kennedy was a huge champion of women, gays, minorities and the disadvantaged.

                        From NOW:

                        For decades Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass.) was the Senate's strongest advocate for women's rights and gay rights. Of the more than 300 bills that the senator and his staff wrote and helped pass into law, many were directed at promoting equality and making the U.S. a fairer and more just nation, especially for those less advantaged.

                        The National Organization for Women was often able to meet with Sen. Kennedy to urge that he take leadership in passing important legislation that would advance equality and well-being for women. His Senate office was always open to women's rights advocates and the senator saw to it that staff was ready to work with us on our issues. His liberal leadership served as an important counterbalance during the dark years of right-wing conservative Republican leadership of Congress and the White House.

                        The senator was a dedicated supporter of women's reproductive rights, a sponsor of the Equal Rights Amendment, a Senate leader in passage of the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1994, a supporter of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and an advocate for many later improvements to civil rights laws that have benefited women. The senator was an early advocate of Title IX, the signature law that advances women's equality in academic and athletic programs at educational institutions receiving federal funds. Kennedy continued to support the principle of equal funding for women's sports throughout successive attacks on the Title IX.

                        That the senator remained in the Roman Catholic faith and yet supported women's access to reproductive health care services is an important fact about his legislative career. In 1994, with women's reproductive health advocates, he helped pass the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act (FACE), which limited actions of aggressive abortion rights opponents and helped protect the safety of patients and clinic personnel.

                        Teddy Kennedy was the force behind the hate crimes legislation that finally passed.

                        The Kennedys still embrace and devote their energies to these values.

                        Whatever personal foibles the individual Kennedy engaged... it never affected the underlying drive for equality and betterment for women's lives.


                        One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. --Carl Jung

                        by bronte17 on Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 08:44:51 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  foibles? (0+ / 0-)

                          Despite the fact that things improved for women under Democrats, the private lives of the Kennedy men were a scandal and a terrible example to young people.  After his divorce and remarriage, Ted Kennedy shaped up considerably and actually became a worthy husband.

                          Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                          by tikkun on Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 04:58:58 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  Conflating consensual acts.. (8+ / 0-)

                    And this is one of the things that makes life hard for women.   When we compare and contrast consensual acts with non-consensual acts and set a standard that says there is any equal ground between them, we do real harm to women.

                    You are basically saying that whether by rape or choice, it's all the same.   This isn't the case.   You seem to judge devaluing them by.. I'm not sure what standard.

                    The Kennedy family, to date, has done quite well for women voters.  Frankly, if you want to say "tisk tisk, look at all the women those kennedy's slept with!" well, I'm sorry, that's just jealousy.  Last I checked consensual sex between adults is just fine.. and most people tend to like it :)

                    It's that non-consensual stuff and the standard that says it's OK.   But by mixing up the two, it is made a lot easier for those who want to commit those kind of acts.  "It's all the same, isn't it"  No, no it isn't.

                    Gandhi's Seven Sins: Wealth without work; Pleasure without conscience; Knowledge without character; Commerce without morality; Science without humanity; Worship without sacrifice; Politics without principle

                    by Chris Reeves on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:06:20 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I don't think you understand... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Utahrd

                      ...what "devalue" means.

                      I'm pretty sure that leaving a woman to drown in one's car after drunkenly driving off a causeway qualifies.

                      I think being a serial adulterer qualifies.

                      Spin away...

                      I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

                      by itsjim on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:29:30 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You might want to rephrase that as you just (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        AuroraDawn

                        compared both Alexandra Lynch and AvalonBear to rapists with that statement (and if you don't believe me, check out some of last month's Kitchen Table Kibitzing and Insomniacs Vent Hole diaries).

                        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                        by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 01:01:33 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Did I? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          churchylafemme

                          Or is this an association that you made in your mind?

                          I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

                          by itsjim on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 02:21:09 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes you did, you said "I think being a serial (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AuroraDawn

                            adulterer qualifies."  Now take a look at this post which says "I'm cooking an Anglo-Norman dinner for my husband and boyfriend tonight, because we were talking about the cuisine and boyfriend wants to try it, and husband loves it".  Well that makes her a serial adulterer and her husband a co-conspirator (as he both knows about and approves of said adultery).

                            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                            by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 02:49:28 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That is so lame. (0+ / 0-)

                            First, you apparently don't understand the use of the term "serial," which connotes a repeated pattern of compulsive behavior with multiple partners/victims.

                            Second, the context around the comment should have been a clue that I was referring to the Kennedy men as serial adulterers, not some woman I've never heard of.

                            Third, the comment was an example of how liberal Democrats have objectified and devalued women, as evidence that such behavior is not strictly a Republican character trait.

                            Finally, I've never heard of the people you are referring to. How could I be making a comparison to them?

                            Sorry this is such a challenge for you.

                            I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

                            by itsjim on Tue Oct 15, 2013 at 05:48:41 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  I would say the Kennedys are less repulsive than (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    itsjim, AuroraDawn

                    their Kennebunkport neighbors, the Bushes.

                    LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                    by BlackSheep1 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:50:29 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  This is shocking and heartbreaking. (5+ / 0-)

                I visited my dad's hometown in NW Mo a couple of times, years ago -- a nice little town about a mile from the Nodaway River... nice folks too. He left Nodaway County in about 1921, and I've lost touch with the distant relatives there... how sad to realize they've probably succumbed to ignorance and misogyny as in so many places in the midwest.

                I'm glad my dad got out, and took his parents, sister and her family west to California.

            •  You're right, but it's a fact that the misogyny, (6+ / 0-)

              suppression of women's rights, gun worship, indulgence of sports stars, are all part and parcel of a corrupt trend in our society that includes the bullying and intimidation by the religious right, and the rise of "tea party" politics. It would be better if commenters make a more specific connection between the right wing culture and behavior of our youth than take cheap and wild shots at the gop.

              You can't make this stuff up.

              by David54 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:08:33 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  This attitude is part of the problem (11+ / 0-)

            Rape doesn't just happen in small towns with big football teams.  It's easy to say that the "enemy" whether that be someone of another political affliction or race or class is more "capable" of committing rape than our precious son.

            We need to sit down and realize this case isn't special and that this plays out across the country a lot.  

            We need to admit that we are raising a generation of crappy boys who don't understand that no means no and that things like the victim being "drunk" doesn't mean yes.

            Until we all sit down and address this, we will continue our fake outrage at these stories.

            •  "attitude" "fake outrage" ? (7+ / 0-)

              not sure why you are replying to my comment above, since i've expressed neither the attitude you mention or fake outrage, so in case there is some misunderstanding, i'll say again, i'm only commenting because, given our experience in that particular place, this event is absolutely no surprise.

              "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

              by kj in missouri on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:41:36 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry, I didn't mean you personally (10+ / 0-)

                And I admit I approach this a little bit more jaded than most as I was a rape crisis counselor for a long time.

                I just meant that this type of situations happens ALL the time.  Every once in awhile, they make the news and people get all outraged for a half of second and then go back to not caring.

                People don't want to have the uncomfortable conversation that all of us are responsible for creating this kind of culture.  It's the messages we tell women (and I mean a collective WE) about sex.  It's the message we raise our sons with.

                We are (somewhat) outraged if a pretty innocent girl gets raped by a popular football player but if we think that there was any kind of grey to that we often turn on the victim.  Why is she drinking/doing drugs, what is she wearing, is she promiscuous, is he a "nice" kid...etc.

                •  oh, i get that (6+ / 0-)

                  rape is far underreported, sometimes even among our own (women).   it's a pandora's box.   thank you for your work, counseling after-the-fact also far too rarely accessed for those who have been raped.

                  also, thank you for replying.  i was beginning to think i was given off a vibe that is the opposite of my thinking.   where this happened is personal to me, that it (rape) happens has everything to do with our attitudes about women, men, sex and power.

                  "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                  by kj in missouri on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:21:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Actually All Of Those Are Legitimate Concerns (0+ / 0-)

                  but they are her mother's concerns, not ours.  Rape is the topic and there is no 'grey' about that.

                  Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                  by tikkun on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:20:06 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Considering that Republicas foster these attitudes (11+ / 0-)

          In most everything they do, I can see why some would blame it on them.

          Look at how they actively want to hurt girls and women in almost everything they do. They regularly target girls and women with cuts to programs, rules and regulations that harm them, and hate speech against them.

          That being said, I recommended it as a society problem, because it's not just Republicans, although they are the most public face of the problem.



          Women create the entire labor force.
          ---------------------------------------------
          Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

          by splashy on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:02:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Good point. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo

          I've removed my rec for the comment. Thank you for the suggestion. You were right.

          Why do I have the feeling George W. Bush joined the Stonecutters, ate a mess of ribs, and used the Constitution as a napkin?

          by Matt Z on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 03:02:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  Actually, it's about the law being enforced (18+ / 0-)

        When rape is not punished, as in the military, it is encouraged.

        If you can find money to kill people, you can find money to help people. --Tony Benn

        by rhetoricus on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 06:55:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, it's certainly about that too, but (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          4democracy, AuroraDawn

          rape doesn't originate in less-than-rigorous enforcement of laws forbidding it.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 07:16:22 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  but it is political if a R politician (6+ / 0-)

        got these charges dropped.

      •  sideboth: not how WE are raising OUR boys (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MHB, AuroraDawn, tikkun, wesmorgan1

        how some people are NOT raising their boys to be genuine men.

        LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

        by BlackSheep1 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:46:57 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  That's only true of the unenlightened, and I'll (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AuroraDawn

        leave it at that, except to say that tons of "liberated" parents do not behave in that fashion.

        That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

        by enhydra lutris on Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 09:55:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Bullying is a GOP tactic (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AuroraDawn, tikkun

        See the Brooks bros. "riot" or even the riot yesterday at the White House.  This is how they escape prosecution in Missouri:  assemble vigilantes and get them righteously pissed.  This has everything to do with the politics of intimidation.  Both sides commit crimes; one rarely pays for them.  

      •  That, and clearly (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        MHB, offred, WakeUpNeo, AuroraDawn, tikkun

        the Barnett boy has some serious issues.  He lacks empathy and a conscience.  The fact the he still is making jokes points to this person needing some serious time with a psychologist.

        I doubt what happened was an isolated incident with him.

      •  On the contrary (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        AuroraDawn, tikkun

        Rape culture is precisely a Republican problem. It's part of the bullying culture which defines the Republican mind and politics. There is nothing in the Republican party which isn't, in one dimension or another, about raping other people, whether sexually with dick or wand, or by taking their food, their homes, their lives, their labor. It's the Rape-publican party. Having a major political party with a broadly pro-rape platfrom influences even those young men who've yet to declare a political party. If we could purge the Republicans, rape would go down significantly.

        Look at the statistics, red states versus blue. Rape is far higher in the Confederacy, and in those rural areas where Confederate/Republican culture prevails. This is no coincidence. It's the same disease, the same degenerate morality.

      •  So much for the MORAL Christians (0+ / 0-)

        The GOP seems to keep saying that they are Christians - this is NOT what true Christians do.  They don't drink.  They don't rape. They don't have sex with kids.  I'm curious if these boys were involved in religion, or if their families were.  If so, what was the opinion of the church?

        It just goes to show you what having FAKE morality really is - the lack of them.

        The other issue is that no one has respect anymore... not respect for others, or for themselves.  There was a time when a high school senior respected himself enough that he wouldn't be caught dead with a 14 year old, never mind have sex with one.  

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