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View Diary: Covering the Mentally Ill. With Bullets. And Blood. (49 comments)

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  •  You have an understaffed police force. It takes (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    6412093, BlackSheep1, dharmasyd

    two officers to make a traffic stop. It takes maybe 3 times that many to subdue a mentally ill person.

    When you all want to stop blaming police and start calling for a solution that will work, let me know.

    I am being defensive here because last time I called for more police in a diary like this I was told that more staff would just mean more killing of mentally ill. And I think that is nuts.

    _____

    Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

    by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 08:35:20 AM PDT

    •  They didn't need to subdue him. (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea, atana, corvo, annieli, CuriousBoston

      He was already passive.

      We blame police because they and their training and the mentality they come out of with are the problem here.

      •  For 2 minutes he was passive. (0+ / 0-)

        All I am saying that in a 'mental' police situation there should have been at least 6 officers instead of 2.

        Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

        by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 08:44:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Then they would have shot hit with 12 bullets. (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          gerrilea, atana, corvo, annieli

          Or more likely the cops would have erupted each with a hail of bullets, thinking they were being threatened.  As with the Cleveland situation where they fired 137 bullets into a situation where the victims were unarmed.

          And he would have been killed.

          The cops didn't need to do anything.  He wasn't a threat. There was no need for six cops. Or eight. Or a hundred.

          •  You are jumping from one thing to another. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            6412093, BlackBandFedora

            Spontaneous gun fire is not caused by too many police on the job. If that is what caused it then we could just eliminate all police. Problem solved.

            I am saying that passive resistance requires more man power than someone who cooperates. And mentally ill resistance is not an easy thing to handle and needs even more manpower.

            We have SWAT teams, we have HAZMAT teams, why don't we have MIST teams? These are things you should be advocating not this righteous indignation belly aching. That gets no where and accomplishes nothing.

            (Mentally Ill Subdue Teams)

            ________

            Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

            by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 09:00:11 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Which would help if they're called, etc. (6+ / 0-)

              And we have those, they are people who work at mental health care institutions. If the police wanted they could call people to do just that. More people with guns is not the answer.

              •  Why wouldn't they call? Why aren't you advocating (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                6412093

                for them to call? If they are there, why aren't they being called? Why would a MIST team have only guns as tools? I think the HAZMAT team has more than guns.

                Why is there so much resistance to having a MIST team on call form the various mental institutions? Why aren't you all screaming that they weren't called?

                I don't think this connection has been made and you are so dug in to being 'right' on the internet, it will take you sometime to process this idea.

                Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

                by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 09:33:40 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't have any control over the police (6+ / 0-)

                  If I did then there wouldn't be an issue here. My point is that the resource you're talking about already exists, if the police were interested in using it they could. I'm not able to make them do that. I can scream all I want, it won't change anything. God knows I've screamed enough.

                  •  I might have missed it but I think I am the only (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    one talking about it. You haven't posted any links to it. It is like mist.

                    Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

                    by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 09:42:33 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Get it I missed the mist. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

                    by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 09:42:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  The police are capable of calling the ambulance, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jpmassar

                  with trained people to recognize various diseases. From diabetic near comas resulting in death, to many forms of brain disease, paramedics and EMT's are the option.

                  The individual juristictions are perfectly capable of preparing the police, fire, and medical teams to work together. If the police would THINK, take one second to call for medical help.

                  Help Senator Warren. Encourage people to co-sponsor her bills, & the bills she has cosponsored. Elect Ed Markey.

                  by CuriousBoston on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 08:24:20 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  There needs to be a 'Tactical resolution" (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT
              We have SWAT teams, we have HAZMAT teams, why don't we have MIST teams?
              Calming and subduing a mentally ill person is a slow, tedious process and will definitely not lead the evening news unless there is some bloodshed.

              Who is going to get the high fives and free rounds of beer after that shift, the geared up sniper who ended the situation with a round to the dementia-suffering octogenarian's  temple, or the sweater wearing negotiator?

              /snark

              Disclaimer: Weapons of Mass Destruction and terrorists may vary according to region, definition, and purpose. Belief systems pandered separately.

              by BlackBandFedora on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 05:58:37 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  EMT should have been there. They are trained to (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jpmassar

          help people, they are trained to recognize and handle many illnesses, may even recognize the individual. Have youe ever been put in a lockup for being drunk? Then have someone look at your bracelet for ID, learn you are diabetic?

          Help Senator Warren. Encourage people to co-sponsor her bills, & the bills she has cosponsored. Elect Ed Markey.

          by CuriousBoston on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 08:18:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  Two cops to make a traffic stop? (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea, corvo, annieli, CuriousBoston

      Then why have I been pulled over by a single police officer?

      •  And that was probably enough. What I see in the (0+ / 0-)

        video is lack of manpower.  So your obstinance in just wanting to blame and punish shows me you have no interest in solving the problem in mentally ill and police interface other than punishment and blame.

        You can educate people all you want but that won't give them six more hands and 8 more legs. Manpower is a large missing link to proper handling of these situations.

        _______

        Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

        by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 08:52:25 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  What I see in the video is the cold-blooded (7+ / 0-)

          attempted murder of an innocent victim.

          You continue to assert without any evidence that more person-power would reduce the assaults and the murders, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  Thomas Kelly was beaten by multiple officers. The Cleveland assault was precipitated by having large numbers of officers on the scene.  There were many officers in Kayla Moore's apartment.  The person who was beaten to death in Bakersfield was assaulted by at least eight officers.

          •  I am advocating a MIST team to handle the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            marykk

            situation. We have SWAT teams, we have HAZMAT teams.

            You seem to think the police force is just using the mentally ill for target practice. I am saying you need to calm down and think about what will solve the problem.

            Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

            by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 09:02:34 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Wanting to blame and punish? (6+ / 0-)

          It sounds like you've got the situation backwards. We've got the police punishing people. Some of us want accountability of those with power. At the very least.

          •  I am saying that accountability is the least the (0+ / 0-)

            very least. Set your sights higher much higher.

            Don't you love my new newly thought of idea. Call the MIST team for handling these events.

            They call the SWAT team for snipers, they call the HAZMAT team for bombers, we should be advocating they call the MIST team for subduing the mentally ill.

            ______

            Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

            by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 09:06:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sounds like you are defending the officers cold (6+ / 0-)

              blooded killing to me.  "Those poor officers, if only they had more manpower then they wouldn't have had to shoot first and send flowers later"

              You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

              by Throw The Bums Out on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 10:46:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Throw, I am reading 88kathy's (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                88kathy, jpmassar

                comment differently.  She is hoping that police will learn to recognize when they have encountered a mentally ill person, and would call in professionals to deal with them, rather than blaze away.

                I don't understand why so often, police don't recognize mentally ill people, and handle them appropriately.

                I live near Portland Oregon, and those cops have probably gunned down a half-dozen mentally people in the last couple of years.  One or two of them may have charged the cops with a knife, but that's still barely justification for gunning them down.

                I despair at how poorly trained the police are, not to be able to tell that someone's mentally ill, and not be able to deal with them.

                “The answer must be, I think, that beauty and grace are performed whether or not we will or sense them. The least we can do is try to be there.” ― Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek

                by 6412093 on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 03:46:52 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Exactly, they don't try to defuse a bomb on their (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jpmassar, 6412093

                  own, they call the bomb squad. They don't try to take out a sniper on their own, they call SWAT.

                  I am sure the regular police would much rather avoid the paper work and call the MIST in to handle the situation.

                  I have been a strong union member all my life. And I always on the side of the worker being asked to handle a situation for which they are grossly unequipped. Two officers equipped with guns and flashlights are grossly unequipped and understaffed to deal with a mentally ill person.

                  Instead of punishing people, we need to understand the situation and prevent it from happening. I also worked for an airplane manufacturing company. Instead of firing people for mixing right and left parts, engineering made it impossible to make that error.

                  I think it is better to make it impossible to make an error and have double back up systems in place than to fire and imprison people. It's just my work experience that makes me think like I do.

                  Only gun owners can control their guns and they say oopsie way too much. I lost it, I forgot it, it just went off. Support Gun Kill Speed Limits and Gun Ownership Speed Limits.

                  by 88kathy on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 04:00:08 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  You can't train mindset and/or personality (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  6412093, CuriousBoston, jpmassar

                  disorder out of a wannabe cop. We need far fewer things being illegal, smaller police forces, and a far more in depth selection process. Legalize drugs and we could reduce our entire criminal justice system by 50% and still be overstaffed.

                  There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

                  by oldpotsmuggler on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 06:54:31 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

    •  I hear you 88kathy. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      88kathy, jpmassar, CuriousBoston, AoT

      I hope you can hear me.  I'm an 80 y.o. lady, shrunk to about 5'4" now, 130 lbs, well kept, and presentable.  I shouldn't be mistaken as a threat to anybody by anybody.  Oh, and just in case, I should add that I am caucasian.  Shouldn't be a threat there.  Also, I had just bought my car and had not yet put any anti war, pro women's rights bumper stickers on it.  No threat there.

      As I was driving home one day, I saw a red light in my mirror and heard the short blast of the police car siren.   I was blinking for a left turn as I was at home (a 150 unit seniors apartment complex) and wanted to turn into my parking lot.  

      I pulled into the lot and stopped.  The policeman followed me and also stopped.  That's when I made the only possible mistake.  Unaccustomed as I am to being stopped by the police, I am not familiar with the 'correct' protocol for such encounters.  I got out of my car to walk back to his car.  That seemed to be the 'safest' thing to do from what I assumed would be the cop's perspective--he could see me completely, hands by sides, not holding anything--.  He let me know, post haste that I was wrong as he blared over his loud loudspeaker: "Get back in the car," in a very unpleasant tone.   When he got to the driver's window of my car, he gave me the 3rd degree.  
      "Why did you pull into the parking lot?"  
      "Because I live here, my parking place is..."
      "How long have you lived here?"
      (As the questioning continued, I told the officer I had emphysema and needed to get my oxygen tank out of the back as my breathing was getting bad (I'm sure the stress didn't help).  At least he was "kind" enough to allow me to get my oxygen tank.  By this point, another tenant saw what was happening and came across the lot to see if there was anything she could do.  She backed me up when I answered his question...)
      "I've lived here 17 years."
      The other tenant validated this.

      Finally the cop told me what I had done wrong was wrong.  The little colored registration sticker was not on the rear license plate.  Yeah. People steal those things.  I had not checked to see if it had been cross hatched with a razor blade (against theft) when I bought the car.

      He spoke to me very sternly, treated me like a heavy duty criminal and gave me a no-fee citation to get signed off when I replaced the sticker.

      I'm sorry 88kathy, but there is something wrong with this kind of attitude on the part of the police.  It indicates something very scary, something insane, as jp says, about the psychological condition of our authority figures.

      I re'd you comment because of your effort.  I shan't respond to your comments again.  I cannot justify this rude behavior on the part of the police.  Although this incident is insignifcant, I can see how it easily leads to the police drawing their guns and blasting away.  I don't have the time, at almost 81, to give more energy to disagreements which go nowhere because we are both set in our beliefs.  Good day.

      I'd like to end with a quote from a bumper sticker I saw on an USMC car:

      When in doubt, empty your magazine.
      This was at the time we (the US) were killing kids, women, and anybody else at wedding parties in Afghanistan.  Semper Fi indeed!

      the war being waged...is the relentless ...struggle... by the rich against the poor. " by Andrew O'Hehir in "Salon"

      by dharmasyd on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 03:04:10 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Kathy, I'm not sure how many times you,ve (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      CuriousBoston, dharmasyd, jpmassar

      been arrested by my broad and long experience at it tells me that one professional cop can do the work of a half dozen power hungry neanderthals. My suggestion is that we stop hiring the power hungry neanderthals.

      There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

      by oldpotsmuggler on Sun Oct 20, 2013 at 06:58:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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