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View Diary: Are We Doing Young Persons a Disservice by Teaching them No Means No? (385 comments)

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  •  This line (1+ / 0-)
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    "I'm having a great time.  Can we talk about sex and make a decision together that we both feel comfortable with so that something we both regret doesn't happen later?"
    Would just about guarantee nothing regrettable let alone memorable would occur.

    “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

    by ban nock on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 06:07:55 AM PDT

    •  No it doesn't. (9+ / 0-)

      A rapist could have the best conversation in the world before hand and could tell a young woman that he understands no means no. And then a rapist will very willingly ignore the no when it happens.

      That's what people are not talking about here. Rape is not a mistake. It's a crime and men who commit rape know what they are doing. It's not mixed signals. That's an excuse that rapists use to prevent being arrested and when we allow that excuse to persist in the conversations about sex and sex education, we become culpable. Our culture needs to teach that rape is rape.

      •  We Agree that For Adults (4+ / 0-)

        That this is an undeniable truth:

        "It's a crime and men who commit rape know what they are doing. "

        However, this diary is about teenagers.  Children. Do you truly believe that, taking into account the science of cognition, that all boys always know what they are doing just because and that are never any "mixed signals"? If you do, respectfully your view of this appears colored by your adulthood and you don't remember the experience of having to navigate sexuality within the context of dating as a teenager.  We're not talking about stranger rape in this diary, but something far more complex.  In the end, it's still rape -- but if we truly want to fix the problem, the context of youth sexuality screams for something more than just the pat "No means no" education--an education that talks about girls and their agency (with the commensurate responsibilities), even if that exercise of agency necessarily occurs a lot earlier in the encounter than the agency we're expecting boys to exercise right up until the 11 99/100th hour of a sexual encounter.

        •  That is why we need to have these discussions (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          angelajean, shanikka, TiaRachel, Praxical

          with young people of both genders. And keep having these discussion.

          What is Coersion.
          What is rape.
          What is Sex
          What is Consent

          Otherwise children learn all they need to know from the television, the internet, and the adults in their lives. All we have to do is take a look around and see how well that is not working.

          Gentlemen, congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training (Zed, MIB).

          by GreenMother on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 08:17:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I do believe in mixed signals. (1+ / 0-)
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          I don't believe that rape happens because signals got mixed.

          At what age do young men suddenly become capable of telling the difference between mixed signals and clear ones? Just that conversation alone takes away from the conversation of what rape is. Rape isn't about mixed signals. It's about one person, almost always a man, forcing themselves on another person who does not want to go any further. If there is a shade of gray, then don't have sex. A young man should KNOW that the young woman is enjoying herself and wants to be doing what she is doing. She should be an active participant - kissing back, touching back, etc. The signals should be very, very clear. And yes, I do remember what sex was like when I was a teenager. And I do remember saying no, I don't want to go any further. And I can remember what the pressure felt like as well. Today, I have two teenage sons and we've had many, many conversations about sex, pregnancy, and rape, not necessarily in that order. I know that pre-marital sex is more than expected in today's generation and I also know that hooking up is a fact of life as well. It's why these conversations are so very, very important and why the idea of mixed signals is part of the problem.

          You and I both agree that sex ed needs to go beyond No means No. But the idea of mixed signals and Date Rape needs to be revamped as well. I mention that to the diarist in a comment below.

        •  I'm teaching my three boys (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          that we show respect for other people's bodies and belongings. They're young yet, but one will be a preteen in not too long. He has already internalized the idea that you don't do anything to people that they don't want.

          His relationship with his next younger brother has been helpful. Sometimes they start to play and it's all fun, but then little brother doesn't want to do it anymore and starts protesting.

          Our house rule is that anytime anybody says No, we stop. End of story. He has learned this and understands it; we've all been in situations where someone was doing something to us/with us that we didn't like.

          Yes, we have started talking about sex and have talked about Yes and No already. (You can't start too early to get ahead of schoolmates and society--they all start teaching your child very early!).

          I teach him to put himself in the other person's shoes. "That's not okay to do to brother. How would you like it if your buddy did that to you?" And he's old enough to empathize.

          These are lessons that directly impact his future relationships. I can tell you I've been in homes where future rapists were clearly in training too.

          I'm amazed by people's courage and kindness in the face of everything and life.

          by LaraJones on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 12:21:44 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  I know any number of people (1+ / 0-)
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      who could bring personal anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

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