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  •  More jobs will fund that just fine (10+ / 0-)

    you know. How many of those people think we're so stupid that we haven't figured that out yet either?
     

    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

    by lunachickie on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 05:06:04 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Rtght . . . (6+ / 0-)

      But how will we get more jobs when the debt/deficit fairy tale is dominating the debate. We need federal programs for that and we won't get them until the debt/deficit issue is taken off the table. That's what PCS is for.

      •  The only place the debt/deficit (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilK, psyched, TheUnknown285

        fairy tale seems to be seriously dominating anything is on The News and in back rooms where deals are made for the 1%, by the 1%. Real people in Real Life need real jobs. More jobs would go a long way in "providing a fix for this Problem that Social Security supposedly has". We know it and the 1% knows it. And the government they've managed to largely buy off knows it. And they all know we know it.  

        Thinking of the propaganda merchants another way, one could even say that The News shields these government liars very well, and it looks to me like that's an area where some change needs to take place. So either some of these people On The Inside need to start rebelling against their management while they're live and on the air so much of a given day, or else real people are going to have to figure out another way to get some airtime on their own.
         

        This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

        by lunachickie on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 05:39:19 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Thats just not true. (0+ / 0-)

          Here's Pew's most recent poll:

          "When it comes to the key issue of dealing with the economy, slightly more say the Republican Party (44%) than the Democratic Party (37%) could do the better job. Independents favor the GOP on the economy by a 46%-30% margin."

          http://www.dailykos.com/...

          And here is a representative sample on just how much Americans fear the deficit:

          Gallup: Between 2011 and 2013 Gallup asked how much people feared the deficit as a matter of national importance to fix, and the average reply was 62% worry a great deal about the debt and deficit.  Thats also in the link to the post I provided.

          MMT = Reality

          "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

          by Auburn Parks on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 06:03:19 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

            nothing like self-promotion to desperately fan the flames of a dying propaganda meme.

            BOO!
             

            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

            by lunachickie on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 08:31:03 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not sure what "dying propaganda meme" means (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psyched

              but my post contained both of the quotes, images, and links.  So it seemed practical to link to that instead of a very long Pew research poll, same thing with Gallup.  But you are entitled to be an ass if you so choose.  Cheers!

              MMT = Reality

              "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

              by Auburn Parks on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 08:38:00 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course you're not! (0+ / 0-)

                Name-calling = the last refuge of the gasping narrative

                Cheers :)

                This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                by lunachickie on Mon Oct 21, 2013 at 09:32:00 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hey, folks (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psyched, aliasalias

                  I think we're all on the same side, so can the name-calling. Auburn, you and I agree that the deficit/debt issue is a barrier in the way of progressive fiscal policy.

                  However, I think the survey data is a bit more ambiguous in its importance.

                  Here's Gallup on the most important issues.

                  http://content.gallup.com/...

                  You can see that normally unemployment/jobs and the economy are both much more important than the deficit/debt which is normally only in the middle single digits. However, the deficit/debt issue jumps from 5% in September to a virtual tie with jobs/unemployment which fell from 17% to 12%. That compares to the 19% for the economy as a whole.

                  I think the 12% level of importance for debt/deficit and the same level for unemployment/jobs were driven by the shutdown and debt ceiling crisis events. Over the next few months the percentages will be returning to their pre-crisis levels, where unemployment/jobs has roughly 3 times the frequency of debt/deficits in the polling data.

                  •  Not sure how I'm the bad guy in all this. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    psyched

                    Joe, with regards to your link.  Sure. thats one example.  Here's a quick rundown of the links that come up when googling "US polls on deficit":

                    "Some 57 percent of Americans oppose legislation that would raise the debt ceiling with no conditions attached, according to a new Christian Science Monitor/TIPP survey."

                    http://www.csmonitor.com/...

                    "Seven of 10 surveyed in a new Pew Research and USA Today poll released Thursday said major legislation on the deficit is the most important issue on Congress' plate, topping immigration, gun legislation and other issues."

                    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/...

                    "The survey found that two-thirds of Americans want Washington to reduce the deficit in the short term rather than wait for a stronger economy. That included 74 percent of Republicans, 71 percent of independents and 57 percent of Democrats."

                    http://www.reuters.com/...

                    "In the poll, eight in 10 respondents say they are concerned about the growing federal deficit and the national debt, but more than 60 percent — including key swing-voter groups — are concerned that major cuts from Congress could impact their lives and their families."

                    http://www.nbcnews.com/...

                    Another one from Pew showing the deficit as a top concern among 6+% of voters

                    http://www.people-press.org/...

                    This Pew poll from Jan of this year:

                    http://www.people-press.org/...

                    "Nearly two in three (64%) worry a great deal about federal spending and the budget deficit. "

                    http://www.gallup.com/...

                    "Instead, 61 percent say that it’s “right to require spending cuts when the debt ceiling is raised even if it risks default,” because Congress lacks spending discipline, according to a Bloomberg National Poll conducted Sept. 20-23."

                    http://www.bloomberg.com/...

                    "Do you think it is necessary to take immediate action to lower the budget deficit or do you think it is possible to wait for better economic times?" 56% think its necessary

                    http://www.nytimes.com/...

                    "Some good news for Republicans as Washington readies for a fiscal confrontation over the debt ceiling later this year: voters trust the GOP more than Democrats when it comes to dealing with the federal deficit, a new poll finds" Quinnipiac

                    http://www.quinnipiac.edu/...

                    We can argue about alot of things, but whether or not the broader American public is worried about spending and deficits, is not one of them.

                    The baseline point of all this is, how can the American public view the Cons as being better or at least as good as Dems on handling the economy?  Especially given how disastrous the Bush administration was on the issue.  This wasn't generations ago, this was only 5 F-ING years ago.

                    My claim is that because the broader public is consistently worried about spending and deficits, and because Cons constantly make this their oft-stated public priority #1, this puts the Cons on at least an even playing field with Dems.  And people should be worried about spending and deficits (not because they are dangerous of course) but because both the Cons and the Dems agree that the deficit is bad, what choice do people have?  The Dems and progressives have failed to give the public a reason why deficits are for all intents and purpose irrelevant (talk to me when Congress consistently authorizes deficits big enough to enable inflation).  The only viable solution to the problem of how to explain to the public why deficits are not just "not bad" but that in fact they are necessary and good, is of course MMT.  And that is the point I've been trying to make to my brother and sister progressives.  We can't minimize the pyshcological effects on the American psyche due to fears of debt and bankruptcy for the country.  If we do, we are ignoring the root of the problem that we must overcome.

                    MMT = Reality

                    "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

                    by Auburn Parks on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 01:44:05 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I agree with all this (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      psyched

                      Auburn. In fact, the political importance of the issue is why I want like HVPCS so much. The $60 T coin simple takes that issue off the table and clears the deck to consider real problems on their merits.

                      All I'm calling attention to is that the polling is from a comparative issues perspective, rather than simply asking about the debt and deficit in isolation, it turns out that people mostly put the economy and jobs first and the deficit/debt issue later by a good margin.

                      That said there's nothing I'd like more than getting rid of the debt without paying it down by running surpluses, a sure way to permanently devastate the economy.

                •  not sure what "gasping narrative" means? (0+ / 0-)

                  care to elaborate?  

                  MMT = Reailty

                  "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

                  by Auburn Parks on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 01:07:52 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The diary is called (0+ / 0-)

                    Dick Durbin Insults Everyone Else's Intelligence About Social Security. You came into it and glommed onto a comment as high up in the discussion as you could, without regard to whether it made any sense at all to post it there, in order to post nonsense and ridiculous "polling" about "the deficit", along with a self-serving diary pimp for a diary which reads like Conspiracy Theory,

                    Your repeated talking points are a gasping narrative, frantically repeated by the FOX Noise wannabes of the United States. It is "gasping" because it is being rightfully starved of oxygen. I trust you're intelligent enough to know what a narrative is.

                    Soon, your oxygen-starved narrative will be as dead as the damnable original Grand Bargain. People know bullshit when they read it.

                    Cheeers!!!

                    This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                    by lunachickie on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 06:19:33 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  thats some of the best comedy I've read in (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      psyched

                      a while.  Thanks for that hearty laugh.  Polls as conspiracy theories, that is exactly what the right wing thinks.  You made the claim that only the 1% worries about the debt and deficit, I have thoroughly debunked that claim, both in my post that I linked to and even further in the response to Joe below.  Just because you are clearly wrong about something doesn't mean you have to get nasty.  Thanks for playing though, this was fun.

                      MMT = Reality

                      "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

                      by Auburn Parks on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 07:19:18 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  I think (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      psyched

                      Auburn's link to his diary was perfectly in order. In fact, I think it's a fine diary, about a serious problem, and I encourage everyone to read it

          •  In every poll I've ever seen since the crash (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lunachickie, aliasalias

            People consider jobs and the economy a more important concern than deficit and the debt. All the king's (heh) horses and all the king's men haven't been able to shift that to Washington's, or Wall St's liking.

            I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 05:51:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure, but the debt and deficit are right up there (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              psyched

              along with jobs, typical cognitive dissonance from the American public, as I've demonstrated in my above reply to letsgetitdone.  Thats only 10 polls that I found in 5 minutes dating back to 2010.  I could probably find hundreds more going back to the beginning of polling if I thought it was necessary to make my point.  Anyways, jobs and the economy are directly linked to the deficit and therefore the amount of money the Govt creates each year.  Politicians, Dems especially have no plans to do a jobs program and help the economy, because that would necessitate that they expand the deficit to do so.  And since they have publicly agreed with Cons that the deficit is bad and something to shrink, that leaves them with absolutely zero policy space.  Which is the reason Washington has ignored the economy, other than to hurt it by shrinking the Govt contribution.  This is why the Dems have lost, they have nothing to offer.

              MMT = Reality

              "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

              by Auburn Parks on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 07:26:57 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Well, it's also the case that it makes the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                psyched

                Dems' rich donors happy when workers' share of national income shrinks and owners' share of income rises. That's the other reason why the Dems have no inclination to create a real jobs program.

                And it's painfully, poignantly, bitter for me, as someone who spent a great deal of effort, money, and time to further the Democratic party's success, to watch everyone here celebrating the Democratic party's victory over the dying Republican brand, when the Democratic party is most likely on the verge of consigning themselves to permanent minority--unless we dispense altogether with an electoral system and allow Wall St and the Chamber appoint politicians.

                I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

                by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 09:50:35 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  It's not that I don't agree with you about (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                psyched

                larger deficits esp. in time of contraction. I begin with Keynes (I know you guys don't altogether like Keynes, but he obviously gets some things right).

                But it's also obvious that just having a big deficit isn't enough, or George W. Bush would be the king of prosperity.

                I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

                by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 09:53:13 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  In all fairness to W, his average annual deficits (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psyched

                  were historically small, especially if you discount the last one caused by the onset of the Great Recession.

                  Average deficits as a % of GDP between 2002 (FY 2001 is Clinton's budget) and 2008:
                  2.47% of GDP

                  When you include his last budget (FY 2009), the number goes up to:
                  3.43% of GDP.

                  Reagan average annual deficits as a % of GDP:
                  4.25% of GDP

                  Bush I:
                  4.25% of GDP

                  Clinton:
                  .11 % of GDP

                  Obama:
                  7.68% of GDP

                  http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/...

                  Like I said, Bush II had historically small deficits.  He was a terrible president, a liar and idiot.  But we should at least have the facts right.

                  MMT = Reality

                  "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

                  by Auburn Parks on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 10:31:23 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Auburn Parks, psyched
                And since they have publicly agreed with Cons that the deficit is bad and something to shrink, that leaves them with absolutely zero policy space.  Which is the reason Washington has ignored the economy, other than to hurt it by shrinking the Govt contribution.  This is why the Dems have lost, they have nothing to offer.
                It's also why they passed an inadequate stimulus in 2009, and failed to fight for Medicare for All, which, had they passed it then, would have been long since have been implemented, destroying the political power of the health insurance companies, and already saved about 150,000 lives.
                •  Amen Brother (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  psyched

                  "The Earth is my country and Science my religion" Christiaan Huygens. Please join our Kos group "Money and Public Purpose". The gold standard ended on August 15, 1971, its time we start acting like it.

                  by Auburn Parks on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 04:12:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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