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View Diary: Amia Srinivasan's Amazing "Questions for Free Market Moralists" (11 comments)

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  •  interesting claim of creeping Nozickianism (1+ / 0-)
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    Galtisalie

    but not much empirical evidence other than some straw (and the mainstream is hardly and so easily ranged as Rawls v. Nozick as she herself acknowledges in her premise - would that non-continental moral philosophy could be so "honest") meant to support her doctoral degree research in what seems to be self-recognizing "ideology" (sic). It would be a lot easier is these presumed Nozickians (sic) or (Rawlsians even) would self-identify as such, since the discourse would be much improved. She certainly has my best wishes in getting the pundocracy to expand its lexicon, or even better I'd love for her to get interviewed by Rachel

    Rejecting the Nozickian worldview requires us to reflect on what justice really demands, rather than accepting the conventional wisdom that the market can take care of morality for us. If you remain a steadfast Nozickian, you have the option of biting the bullet (as philosophers like to say) and embracing the counterintuitive implications of your view. This would be at least more consistent than what we have today: an ideology that parades as moral common sense.

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 04:32:32 PM PDT

    •  Her analysis was empowering and convincing to me. (0+ / 0-)

      I agree that the world is not all neatly divided into two clean camps, especially in "the mainstream." I don't think she was suggesting that it is. But the amorphousness is not all good. I am not Rawlsian, but I am anti-Nozickian, that is for sure. Clintonian triangulation arguably has helped to win some elections, just like New Labor did for awhile in the UK. But eventually, even mild-mannered Clintonites have had enough, as occurred recently with the shut-down and threatened default. I think that "the mainstream" in the U.S. is dumbed-down because, (1) the left has until recently ceded "moral" language to the right, in part as a reaction to being forced out of churches through the right-wing take-over of churches that was an adjunct to the southern strategy; and (2) unlike across the eastern pond, nothing to the left of Rawls makes it into the discussion, whereas, in the irrational and hypocritical Tea Party world, Nozick is pretty weak tea.

      My avatar is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my paternal grandfather, in the Canary Islands near the Sahara Desert.

      by Galtisalie on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 06:33:38 PM PDT

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      •  thanks for your clarification (1+ / 0-)
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        Galtisalie

        I did enjoy her analysis, I just think that it may too meta-theoretical for the Beltway crowd

        Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

        by annieli on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 09:13:41 PM PDT

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      •  BTW, (1+ / 0-)
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        Galtisalie

        the 'baggers really don't know anything about Nozick and probably know more about Ayn Rand since her books are lighter and they're so stupid they probably think he's a commie (-ick!) and perhaps a couple of Libertarian Party folks know something, even a couple of their ilk in DK, although they do seem pretty motivated only by weed legalization and are clueless about racism among other things

        Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

        by annieli on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 10:04:48 PM PDT

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      •  Morality and the left. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Galtisalie
        the left has until recently ceded "moral" language to the right
        This is probably THE biggest issue with the Western Left. Christian Socialism used to be a thing, and even Marx and Engels were sympathetic to the message of the Gospels (while being unbelievers).

        Where is the progressive minister that can bring the fire and brimstone on behalf of poor mothers and starving children, as opposed to say, gay teens and birth control? Where is the progressive leader who is willing to say that right-wing extremism is not just "wrong", but immoral and evil?

        Moral language resonates with people, and like you said, the left has ceded the language of morality. People identify with black versus white, good versus evil, etc, etc. The reactionary right has presented their cause as such a duality, why can't the left which has actual morality on its side?

        •  Great analysis. (0+ / 0-)

          This has been something I have struggled with since growing up in the Southern Baptist church and seeing it (for all its serious imperfections going back to its earliest racist days, the place where I learned on some level "God is love" as a child) become completely politicized, and by the time I got to college, completely wedded to the idea of running Jimmy Carter out of office and out of the denomination and electing Ronald Reagan. I would commend to anyone interested gardenvarietydemocraticsocialist.com, which grapples with these issues. For Brother Francisco, who cites the Socialist Ten Commandments and maintains that site, these types of "moral incentives" are not tactical and not a matter of simplistic duality at all, but heartfelt and essential to understanding the motivations of much of the earth's population. Peace and thank you Hoshizora No Memoria.  

          My avatar is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my paternal grandfather, in the Canary Islands near the Sahara Desert.

          by Galtisalie on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 08:57:30 AM PDT

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    •  By the way, I saw no snark in (1+ / 0-)
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      annieli

      your comment. It was over my head, but the more I thought about it, the more I learned.

      My avatar is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my paternal grandfather, in the Canary Islands near the Sahara Desert.

      by Galtisalie on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 06:46:49 PM PDT

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    •  Well maybe a litle (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      annieli

      :)sic(:

      My avatar is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my paternal grandfather, in the Canary Islands near the Sahara Desert.

      by Galtisalie on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 08:46:22 PM PDT

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      •  actually (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Galtisalie

        none was intended, aside from the usual amusement with the critical differences as reproduced and contested still in University English-speaking academic philosophy between Anglo-American analytic philosophy and its predecessors/successors and those bunches of Other non-English philosophers who live across the various channel and ocean water(s). Had our 'baggers and some of their major pundits actually not dropped out of college or not developed serious gambling problems or worshipped the Cubs perhaps US political discourse and its application in political parties done so much better in the UK would have been better since the death of Wittgenstein or at least we wouldn't worry when seeing fireplace accessories.

        Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

        by annieli on Tue Oct 22, 2013 at 09:22:25 PM PDT

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    •  I think the "empirical evidence" is all around us. (0+ / 0-)

      It goes back to the time of Charles Dickens at least. There has always been a Nozickian moralizing dimension to squeezing profits at the expense of workers, letting Irish starve, etc.

      My avatar is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my paternal grandfather, in the Canary Islands near the Sahara Desert.

      by Galtisalie on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 04:03:45 AM PDT

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