Skip to main content

View Diary: Pope Francis: The origin of his ideas about equality (29 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  I can't speak for Pope Francis, but... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    anna shane

    ...there are no doubt some theologians who agree with you and other theologians who disagree.

    Which camp is Francis in? Well, he hasn't changed any church teachings, AFAIK. Just emphasis.

    "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

    by HeyMikey on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 09:55:15 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  he'd call them ideologues (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      HeyMikey, Yoshimi

      those who pick and choose which sins are worse, and know what god really thinks.  He hasn't changed the teaching, he's changed the emphasis.  And he's applied the teaching to the ideologues, who had been hiding behind their pointed fingers.  (he really is cool)

      I mean, it goes both ways, the ones that think God is pro-miliary and pro-USA and against gay marriage (but you can't say god is against the military and the USA and for same sex marriage either.) If you 'know,' you're an ideologue.  Francis doesn't pretend to know god, he pretends (or believes) god knows him.    

      Francis says if we're trying to be good we're doing our best and no one is perfect and no one has the right to judge anyone else.  He says that kind of good can get you to heaven, even if you don't believe in the baby Jesus. (that is radical, it's back to good works, and not harming others)

      That part of Catholic teaching is really just anti-sex, it isn't need to be especially anti gay sex, unless you're an ideologue.  Fortunately Jesus was for love, and for leaving the judging to the end, to what is called the final judgement.  

      for someone like me, never a believer but surrounded by them, (and me being more lefty generous and less selfish nasty, but still the 'bad' one) Francis is just great.  Finally there is a Christian who isn't judging me.  

      •  Excellent comment. But an important distinction. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        anna shane
        He says that kind of good can get you to heaven, even if you don't believe in the baby Jesus. (that is radical, it's back to good works, and not harming others).
        I haven't followed Francis as closely as you might have, though I have paid significant attention. But...I don't think Francis thinks good works save anyone. I think Francis thinks Jesus saves everyone...even those who don't believe it.

        While Francis has certainly encouraged believers and non-believers to agree on the world's need for us to do good works, I do not think Francis has maintained they are necessary for salvation.

        But as I noted above, I can't speak for Francis.

        "Salvation"--much to be written on the term. I think envisioning it as my individual consciousness dwelling in an eternal perfect city is too simplistic.

        "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

        by HeyMikey on Wed Oct 23, 2013 at 02:33:18 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  he does (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HeyMikey

          he did say that, a few months back, it was sooo radical.  Someone who believes but who doesn't follow the teaching of Jesus won't get in, according to him, and those who do (and Jesus said nothing about who anyone is allowed to love), who live their lives with generosity and love, will.  So says Francis.  

          It's about serving the least among us.  It's not about the so-called 'personal responsibility' that is so-called subverted by the so-called redistribution of wealth.  As say the Christian right. As says Sarah Palin, and that so-called Catholic Paul Ryan (who the nuns on the bus have also called out - the pope is on the side of the nuns on the bus)

          I don't believe in heaven, of course not, but I do believe that life feels a lot better on earth when you're looking out for more than just yourself.  And I think we'd all feel better if there were more equality of opportunity and a whole lot less poverty and safer and more interesting schools.  

          he's the real deal (I wonder if his life is in danger).  

          •  Re-read what Francis said. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            anna shane
            The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter  that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.

            Seems to me what he's saying is:

            * the duty to do good is a response to the human condition--specifically the human need for more peace;

            * the human condition also includes being redeemed--already--by Jesus.

            Analysis from various sources on this topic--I do not vouch for the quality of any:

            http://www.washingtontimes.com/... [note official Vatican response at the end of this one, which seems counter to Francis's remarks]

            http://www.ncregister.com/...

            http://www.catholicvote.org/...

            http://www.patheos.com/...

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

            All that was in a sermon. Francis apparently said in a separate letter:

            "God forgives those who obey their conscience...The question for those who do not believe in God is to follow their own conscience. Sin, even for a non-believer, is when one goes against one's conscience...[the] mercy of God has no limits."
            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...

            http://www.examiner.com/...

            I'm Presbyterian. I believe everyone is saved by Jesus, though not all Presbyterians agree with me. I see it this way for a number of reasons, mostly a trust in the goodness of God. I see it as implicit in the Presbyterian practice of baptizing infants--we are saved not by what we do, but by what God has already done. All that is to say that I'd like Francis to agree with me, and that desire may color my interpretation of his remarks.

            "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

            by HeyMikey on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 03:52:31 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  do good (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              HeyMikey

              we shall meet each other there.  He's so sweet.  And now he sent that German bishop to live in poverty, to save his soul.  

              Not a believer I, still I do like that pope.  

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site