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View Diary: Tea Party Confederate Secessionists are Finally Crawling out of Closet (288 comments)

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  •  Northwatch is entirely correct (36+ / 0-)

    https://www.google.com/...

    Some officers bought or had their own uniforms made too, which were accepted by individual commands.  In short, there was little uniformity in uniforms.  Don't even get me started on Zouaves.

    A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

    by dougymi on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 10:24:36 AM PDT

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    •  Oh wow. I just googled Zouave (11+ / 0-)

      What, um, interesting uniforms!

      •  I can taste the bubblegum.. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dougymi, sfbob, Dave925, elwior

        that a bubblegum card (military uniforms or similar series) back in the 50's..as soon as I read Zouaves I tasted/smelled gum.

        This machine kills Fascists.

        by KenBee on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 01:08:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  but word was the zouaves were mutts in combat (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Dave925, elwior

        they had no fire discipline and no battle spine.

        didn't last 30 seconds in their battles

        •  No, wrong (12+ / 0-)

          At least as far as the 5th NY and 10th NY.

          As the Wikipedia entry under "zouaves" correctly notes

          At the Second Battle of Bull Run, the 5th New York, along with another Zouave regiment, the 10th New York "National Zouaves", held off the flanking attack of James Longstreet's Corps for ten crucial minutes before it was overrun. The 5th New York thus suffered the highest percentage of casualties in the shortest amount of time of any unit in the Civil War (of 525 men, approximately 120 were killed and 330 were wounded in less than 10 minutes).
          450 killed or wounded out of 525 in ten FREAKIN' minutes in the face of 28,000 charging Confederates to buy time for the rest of Pope's army to face around and avoid annihilation sure as HELL sounds like "fire discipline" and "battle spine" to me.
          (And those red pantaloons made them even easier targets.)

          There are several other regimental histories that acquit the Union Zouaves quite handsomely.

          Shalom.

          "God has given wine to gladden the hearts of people." Psalm 104:15

          by WineRev on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 02:39:22 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Confederate Zouaves were no slouches either (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior

            Look up Wheat's Tigers sometime.

            A learning experience is one of those things that says, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' Douglas Adams

            by dougymi on Thu Oct 24, 2013 at 03:20:50 PM PDT

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          •  getting shot to pieces (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Spider Jerusalem

            may indicate poor tactics.

            as patton said, the point isn't to die for your country
            but to make the other guy die for his side.

            •  Patton was speaking abstractly... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JerryNA

              ...you need to apply that part of your brain as well. You dishonor the many and many of my relatives. It's war, even with the best tactics and leadership, soldiers die.  

              I'm from the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Democratic Party

              by voicemail on Fri Oct 25, 2013 at 08:25:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Tactics in civil war battles were abysmal. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              elwior, JerryNA

              The generals had studied the tactics of the Napoleon era, which involved complex flanking movements and full frontal assaults. Mass fire from rifled muskets that launched heavy miniere balls made those tactics suicidal.
                 Rivalries among generals complicated things, too. At times there would be a plan of action involving multiple units and one general would later decide not to participate.
                 Note the blame cast at Longstreet for not moving soon enough at Gettysburg, and for not supporting Pickett's charge. Also the blaming of Ewell for not seizing Culp's Hill and Cemetery Ridge. Longstreet recounts a battle in which a Confederate general, ordered to make an oblique attack on the flank of the Union army in support of another general, marched his oblique right past the Union line. He saw no point in helping with a victory if the other general would get the credit.
                 And, of course, there were repeated failures by Union generals to take advantage of their superiority in numbers, and to follow up battlefield victories by pursuing the fleeing Confederates.
                It took US Grant to turn that around.

          •  i can't find the article but (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            elwior

            https://en.wikipedia.org/...

            With those divisions facing heavy resistance, Heintzelman's division with the 11th New York was called forward at the double-quick. One observer commented that the 11th New York looked more like firemen randomly running to a fire than soldiers marching towards the front.[41]
            The Virginians fired a volley that took down several men and the Zouaves and Marines broke and ran, but a few of the men remained.[/blockquote>
            In addition, Ellsworth failed to consider that the New York City fire companies from which his troops were drawn often competed against each other at blazes. The cohesion he sought in firefighters did not exist and would not be created when they joined the regiment.
            http://www.civilwar.org/...
            For all their pride and discipline, the 5th New York could take no more. With his comrades in Company G falling all around him, Davenport saw the panicked recruits take to their heels: ‘And then what was left of the Regiment broke and ran for their lives — the Rebels after us, yelling like fiends.’ Christian Neuber of Company F admitted, ‘[it was] every man for himself, what was left of us.’ Neuber’s captain, George Hager, lay dead on the line in his bloodstained finery, ‘a bully looking corpse,’ true to his own prediction.
    •  a Zouavian footnote . . . (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      dougymi, elwior

      John Surratt son of Mary Surrat. Surratt one of the Lincoln conspirators, though he was only involved in the planning of the kidnapping not in the assassination  fled to Canada and then to Europe.

      Arriving in Europe in September 1865, he joined the Papal Zouaves under an assumed name.  Arrested in November 1866, he escaped and was eventually arrested and deported back to US. As the statute of Limitations had run out, he could be tried for murder.  The jury was able to convict him and thus became the only Lincoln conspirator not be hanged or jailed. He died in 1916.

      Here is Surratt in his uniform

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