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View Diary: Do You Want an Echo Chamber at Daily Kos? Just Admit It. (1125 comments)

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  •  We aren't one yet and real arguments are healthy (81+ / 0-)

    However during election time there is an uncomfortable intolerance for any demands from Democrats even though that is the only time such demands have leverage.

    It is clear that many here hate the left and want us gone. Then it will be an echo chamber.

    Those who deflect debates about the issues with complaints about tone usually have a lot to atone for.

    by priceman on Fri Nov 01, 2013 at 03:25:58 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  "Many"..."hate".... (24+ / 0-)

      disagreement does not mean "hate", it can simply mean disagreement.

      This site is filled with a wide spectrum of political beliefs and approaches on how to make progress.

      Rationally defend your ground regarding your beliefs and understand that you may not win every heart and mind. Diversity of thought is a good thing.

      Wonders are many, but none so wonderful as man.

      by Morgan Sandlin on Fri Nov 01, 2013 at 06:44:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have never been HR'd for criticizing Democrats (18+ / 0-)

        I'm definitely a New Deal / Dean Democrat and want to see a return to the basic blueprints of the 1930's through the Great Society era. And no one here ever tells me to shut up. I do try to make constructive conversation but no one has shut me down. I've been critical of the President, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and other Democrats on this site at various times and I only give praise, it seems, when they pry it out of me by doing SOMETHING right. I do try to be constructive in my comments and the occasional diary, but I say what I mean and mean what I say.

        And I've never NOT felt at home here. The Democratic party we have is not the party I want it to be. Yet. But then, there are no other viable alternatives and slowly I think our point of view is becoming more obvious to average Americans as the only rational alternative to what they now have. If we can learn to first pull their heart strings to get them to pay attention, then we can teach them the logic.

        If you want Echo Chamber, go visit Huff Post.

        •  funny I have been HRed for being critical (11+ / 0-)

          of those criticizing democrats.

          Which makes me wonder about the claims of the diarist.

          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Fri Nov 01, 2013 at 08:52:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  While I'm still very happy to label myself (15+ / 0-)

          as an Independent, I find myself socially left. And I think, much like the far right, there are always points to be had from either side. The difference is that the left is still willing to compromise, while the other half isn't.

          I always pick up good points from here from the left view on a conversation, I may not always agree with all the points, but I def will always gain some new inner knowledge. Which is half the battle. Not to mention, the left is far more intelligent in conversation usually  :)

          Right now, the Dems stand to pick up a lot of people like myself, who aren't interested in the social wedge issues, but are wanting to see our government do something about jobs shipped off shore, clean air and environment, healthy living wages (this from a business owner who should hug the Republican race to the bottom on wages), and a healthy middle class.

          Most of us do not wish to see any social rights reverted or held back from any group of people, we want the economy back working for the middle class, and right now, it seems only the Dems can do that. So while you all may bicker over the smaller portions, keep in mind that there are people out there such as myself paying attention and while we may not embrace every leftist ideal, we certainly seem to have way more in common now with the left than we ever did before.

          It is every person's obligation to put back into the world at least the equivalent of what they takes out of it. - Albert Einstein (edited for modern times to include everyone by me!)

          by LeftieIndie on Fri Nov 01, 2013 at 10:23:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's nice to know. Thanks for telling us. n/t (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LeftieIndie, Sylv, caryltoo
          •  What is funny about your comment (9+ / 0-)

            is that the "Independent" has ALWAYS been depicted as a right leaning git and as somebody that had to be  catered too more than any other voter.

            And you are more a Bernie Sanders independent. And I am really thrilled to have you here in this mix.

            It seems that all my life we have been bombing someone, teaching them a lesson. Every day I understand more deeply how violent we are. Violent to others and violent to ourselves. - Robert Olmstead

            by glitterscale on Sat Nov 02, 2013 at 05:21:15 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "Three Myths About Political Independents" (10+ / 0-)

              This article discusses political Independents. The three myths are:  (There are several graphs in the article showing the numbers and percentages of Independents over the years.)

              1) Independents are the largest partisan group.

              2) Independents are actually independent.

              3) Change in the opinions of independents is always consequential.

              But here is the problem: Most independents are closet partisans. This has been well-known in political science since at least 1992, with the publication of The Myth of the Independent Voter...

              ...MYTH #2: Independents are independents.
              The significance of independent leaners is this: they act like partisans. Here is the percent of partisans and independent leaners voting for the presidential candidate of their party...

              There is very little difference between independent leaners and weak partisans. Approximately 75% of independent leaners are loyal partisans...

              MYTH #3: Change in the opinions of independents is always consequential...For one, many claims about the opinions of independents never separate leaners from pure independents...

              Second, movement among “pure” independents is generally less consequential simply because there are so few of these people and because they are less likely than partisans to vote (only 44% of pure independents reported voting in 2008 vs. 82% of strong partisans)...

              But, as far as Independents are concerned, the more Independents like Bernie Sanders, the better IMHO.
      •  I have seen both disagreement and hate (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sylv, joanneleon

        and it's not hard to tell the difference.

        "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

        by Geenius at Wrok on Sat Nov 02, 2013 at 06:53:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  what i hate more than anything (19+ / 0-)

      is the way you tried to appropriate Rev. Dr.  Martin Luther King, whose life (and death) are meaningful and memorable to so many of us here.  Dr. King worked for peace, human rights, civil rights, equality and nonviolent opposition.  he died for his activism.  

      Rev. Dr. King did not, however, do any of the above by typing louder.  

      It is clear that many here hate the left and want us gone. Then it will be an echo chamber.
      and this is how you did that, for people who wrec without reading.
      It also didn't matter that one of King's most derided, yet most important speeches about the Vietnam war was harsh; it needed to be for these same reasons; it was the truth! It still is the truth! I base my observations on these same truths and don't sugarcoat it either. People can debate my sources, but few ever do, and that is allowed for some reason even though in the FAQ it says Daily Kos prides people who use links to back up their assertions.  Maybe not so much?

      You find sources and links throughout most of my work to back up my opinions and observations(however harsh), yet, it is neither respected or protected from people who claim to be running a reality based community.

      you, priceman, are no Martin Luther King.  how dare you invoke the life's work of our most revered leader in modern times for your pie fight?  disgusting.  you ain't fooling anybody who knows the first thing about Rev. Dr. King.
      Martin Luther King Jr. lead a civil rights movement comprising people who bothered to get out of their chairs.

      People who left their bedrooms to risk being shouted at by racists, attacked by police, and assassinated by lunatics.

      They did so because they had to; in order to grapple with the worst parts of human society, they had to actually get out and grapple.

      Matters of humans dying or not dying, voting or not voting, learning or not learning, have to be resolved by more than just a listless verbal tilt of the head.

      Twitter, Facebook, social media are never gonna take the place of getting out in the streets, confronting real issues, working for real solutions . . .  and not having any recommend or HR capabilities.
      We aren't one yet
      never gonna happen.  why would i want to be "one" with people who are permanently online, cursing the darkness?  give me that single candle any and every day of the week and you can bet i'm on it, feet on the street and all about being the change with others in my community (which is not a virtual community).

      there's a helluva lot of work to do, and never enough people to help but lo and behold,  i don't see you posting about whatever it is you do except blogging.

      what i am doing is working 8-12 hours a day in a victims assistance program, participating in every SYG and Trayvon Martin memorial event within 200 miles, volunteering at the Children's Cancer Center . . . and i'm also raising three small children and taking care of my pops and my gramps.  

      show your cards if you got 'em.  

      Fauxtivism is worse than nothing—it trivializes the issue, mistakes gesture for action—and makes you feel good when you haven't accomplished a thing.
      and my signature line?  i encourage you -- and anyone who wrec'd this slow motion meta pity party to take it personally.
    •  It's not just during election time (16+ / 0-)

      though it's ramped up by magnitudes during the ever lengthening election seasons.

      This is a really good diary, priceman. I'm sorry that I missed it last night but I didn't even look at DailyKos last night which is becoming a more and more frequent occurance.  

      You speak for me in this diary.  I've always thought, until the past year or so, that DailyKos would come around and that realize that there is life after Obama and after he is gone from office the party will still need to go on and try to convince the country that it is the party of the working class and also still the party of FDR, and all of the roots that gave it strength during the past 70 years.  

      But there is something more than partisanship going on here.  Ian Welsh did a decent job of bringing forward some discussions about what happened to the netroots.  But that's only part of it.  

      I had some discussions in person recently at a meet up with Kossacks from the NYC and Philly areas.  It was really nice to talk to people face to face, some of whom I've vehemently disagreed with here on dkos.  I told a couple of them about my sentiments and disengagement from this site and they seem to think that things will come around if we take the House back.  I don't see the problem here as being something that can be fixed by more Democratic control in Washington.  They felt strongly that there is still room for a dissenting voice at this site and I don't entirely disagree with that.  But any dissenting voice must learn the very specific rules about what you can say and not say. I've been doing this for years now.  I've pushed the line at times, but I'm tired of self censoring and tired of having to keep current on what things can be said and what can't in this manufactured reality of a community.  It's still worthwhile to participate here to some extent, especially for specific activism campaigns like pushing back against cuts to the safety net.  There is still a broad agreement on that (though you'd think it would be unanimous since it's almost unanimous among the populace).  But as for debate, this isn't the place for it and the people who dominate the discussion here have made it that way for a reason.

      I see an effort, by the corporate controlled parts of both parties, to rein in their "fringe" even when that "fringe" is, on some issues, representing the majority view of the country, a populist view.  I'll leave it at that, and here is a really good example of what has gone wrong at dkos.  We can't even discuss that topic here without the risk of banning.  We constantly have to censor ourselves and cannot talk about things that are going on in the world.  I'm not going to rehash the things that have been done to smear and shut down anyone who talks about the kind of facts and analysis that you describe so well in this diary because we all know the deal.  It's a futile argument here and your discussion about how it really should just be an extension of OFA is spot on.  


      "Justice is a commodity"

      by joanneleon on Sat Nov 02, 2013 at 08:28:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Wow, thank you for your insight, joanneleon (3+ / 0-)

        I'm glad you were able to have a discussion away from this site with kossacks about things that we have to censor ourselves here in order to talk about. It's, indeed, not just during election time, but that is where we see the banning fits from up top for criticizing Democrats.

        You're right; I do appreciate many people here who feel the way you and I do, and the campaigns to protect social security, but we are still outnumbered and the rules are written arbitrarily out of our favor. We really can't debate here when those who are allowed to disrupt debate do not get disciplined like they would on a high school debate team.

        I think that is part of the plan to muddy the facts, but I hope I am wrong. I was really hoping to see a FP piece admitting that they want this to be an echo chamber, but it doesn't look like we will get answers or that this site will move on after the age of Obama as we were hoping. I get tired of self censorship, but also tried of people who stand for things Democrats used to stand for being maligned and how that is enabled and supported here.

        I'm glad this piece related to you. I am proud of it. Thank you, my friend.

        Those who deflect debates about the issues with complaints about tone usually have a lot to atone for.

        by priceman on Sat Nov 02, 2013 at 04:12:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  could I ask a couple questions? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Nada Lemming, Sylv

        I agree the Democratic Party needs to rediscover its New Deal working class roots.

        I've said political party establishments tend to follow, not lead public opinion. I've said the Democratic establishment would move to the left when public opinion moves there & people change their thinking on the deficit, taxation, and more.

        Do you think I'm incorrect or that public opinion is already to the left of today's Dem establishment?  I think on some issues that may be true. For example, I think the public is there on issues like the minimum wage, fair trade, but not on the deficit and taxes. I think most people still feel the budget is like a family budget, and are afraid we will raise their taxes.

        I don't think there are many people here who are for Chained CPI. I interpreted comments defending the WH more as "what the heck is he to do?" meaning they felt he's between a rock and a hard place and didn't have any good options on the budget. For example, Chained CPI sucks. Sequester sucks. There's no way to get a budget that's all new revenues and defense cuts.

        In regard to site tone, this has been an issue for a long time. I don't think Democrats taking back the House will help. I think a Republican president would solve it as the site would be united against the person. But that'd be a national disaster. I'm not sure why you couldn't discuss what's going on in the world without risk of banning. Has anyone been recently banned or warned for criticizing the Democrats?  If it happened, I missed it. If it happened was it third party advocacy which isn't allowed?  

        What's interesting is so many people on both factions seem to feel the front page and moderation is biased against their faction. They can all back it up by linking prior comments, uprates, HR's. To me, that shows it is time for everyone to listen and find out what specifically bothers people on the other faction and then work on not doing that.

        From what I read, it seems most people aren't bothered that somebody doesn't always agree but more about tone?
        Then we get all these new rules about tone and what you can't say, and that just leads to more problems as people feel the rules are unclear and/or not fairly applied.

        I personally wish we could just have an ignore feature - let everyone put a maximum of 2 kossacks on ignore. That's not enough to stifle debate. I think that would solve a lot of problems without having all this NR and time out.

        I also think eventually our politics has to drift significantly left because politics has to drift toward what will solve our economic and environmental crisis. The solutions to these problems lie outside current conventional thinking.

        The current post 1984 Dem coalition socially liberal and economically center/center right resulted in a lot of new socially liberal, well to do Democrats who wouldn't have been Democrats a generation ago. How many of these voters would we lose vs how many new voters would we gain if the new party returns to its New Deal roots?  I do not know the answer to that.

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