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  •  Preternaturally gifted leader and politician? (40+ / 0-)

    Could you give some examples of that?
    I think that was an expectation of Obama  that was definitely not lived up to. I think he's soso as a politician and about the same as a leader.  Obamacare is a good example of that---altho it has his name on it, he had no definite plan for it when he came in (or ever) and its the product of sausage making politics, not a well thought out plan from the start (I'm also a single payer fan)
    Clinton was a get out there and press-the-flesh and kiss babies type of guy. He loved it and was good at it.  Obama is an ivory towered kind of guy. He really is a speechifier, not a debater.

    Happy just to be alive

    by exlrrp on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 06:39:51 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  It seemed 5 years ago that he (11+ / 0-)

      had multitudes of followers, but that isn't the same thing as being an actual leader.

      •  Lets see now (25+ / 0-)

        I think a preternaturally gifted leader and politiciain would have a long record of causes he's assumed and fought with all his heart to put across until theyre real. He puts his ideas across through vigorous debate, whenever possible and then transforms them into reality. He keeps at it.
        Can anyone give and example where Obama did this? (other than his elections)
        (Hint: I won't be taking High SPeed trains to the market this year either)

        Happy just to be alive

        by exlrrp on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 06:48:00 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  well (8+ / 0-)

          he closed Guantanamo i think :(

        •  He wants everyone to play nice and compromise (40+ / 0-)

          as per his Dallas speech yesterday:

          And historically, those things have been struggles, but at least in most of my lifetime, you had both Democrats and Republicans who would affirm those values even if they had differences in tactics or different particular political programs.  That’s not what we have right now.  And the result is not just gridlock, but it's actually a little more destructive than that.

          I mean, the shutdown cost this country money.  It was bad for business.  It was bad for families.  And yet, it still happened.  Default would have been worse -- could have triggered a financial crisis worse than the one we had in 2008.  And yet, that was a real possibility.

          The only way that we can realign our politics so that it matches up with the decency and goodness of the American people is if elections matter, and we're able to both deliver a message and organize ourselves so that folks who aren't acting responsibly pay a consequence, and that we're lifting up and rewarding candidates who are serious about the challenges this country faces and are willing to work together in a spirit that is constructive in order to deliver for the American people.

          So that’s what 2012 was about, and that’s what 2014 was about, and I suspect that’s what 2016 is going to be about.  And I have to say that I'm a proud Democrat and am committed to the values that the Democratic Party represents, but I'm also interested in getting the Republican Party back in a functioning state.  Because this country has two parties, and we need both of them operating in a way that allows us to move forward.

          He called the likely GOP frontrunner for 2016 to congratulate him on his re-election.  This president keeps at it.  The things he keeps at (e.g. TPP and the "Grand Bargain") aren't necessarily things that many of us here actually want.

          Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

          by RFK Lives on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 07:16:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  He called out Cruz in that speech, (12+ / 0-)

            oh selective editor, and he called MacAuliffe also, and Biden called the wrong Marty Walsh.  He'd have called whomever won.   Christie will probably win the New Hampshire primary, but that's it.

            Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

            by Loge on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 07:26:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I don't see Cruz mentioned by name in speech (12+ / 0-)

              Please show me where he was mentioned.  The only mention of GOP senators I saw by name came here:

              So on issues like immigration reform, where we know we've got a bipartisan consensus and the majority of the people support it and we've already passed it through the Senate, Michael Bennet worked with folks like Marco Rubio and John McCain and Jeff Flake -- Republicans who recognize we've got a broken system and we need to fix it.  
              A Dem president calling a Dem gov to congratulate him isn't exactly news.  A president calling a re-elected gov from the other party who's clearly gearing up for a presidential run is unusual.  As to whether Christie will retain his likely front-runner status after Goopers actually start voting is a total unknown at present, and it's utterly beside the point.

              Some men see things as they are and ask why. I dream of things that never were and ask why not?

              by RFK Lives on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 07:38:29 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "some politicans down here in texas" (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sviscusi, buffie, jqb, Phoenix Woman

                that confused you?  I said he called him out, not that he called him out by name.  (I'm sure Rubio in particular would prefer Obama had left his name out of it.)

                even if the phone cal were unusual, i have no idea what significance it has.  Obama and Christie are apparently personally friendly - CC passes the "have a beer with" test and then some.  Obama's gonna be supporting Hillary.  Perhaps he's using the Christie election as a wedge between the establishment and insurgent groups in the Republican party.  Perhaps it's just courtesy.  I don't know that boldfacing the word 'is' makes it more true, in any event, nor do I see what significance this has in the broader context of the diary's argument.  And the word "retain" does not mean what you think it means, though i agree whatever it is is beside the point.  

                Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                by Loge on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 07:50:22 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Is a map necessary here? (8+ / 0-)
                  i have no idea what significance it has.
                  The comment you're responding to just laid out a good argument:
                  A Dem president calling a Dem gov to congratulate him isn't exactly news.   A president calling a re-elected gov from the other party who's clearly gearing up for a presidential run is unusual.
                  Obama is allegedly a Democrat. Chris Christie calls himself a Republican. He might even be the Democrats' opponent in 2016.  To say that is unusual is the significance.

                  Has it become impossible to dial back the deliberately-obtuse around here, or is that all which remains of "defenses" of exactly this kind of dissonant fuckery? Because unless they're best pals, that call was stupid.

                  This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                  by lunachickie on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 07:59:56 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This is a diary about getting people signed up (4+ / 0-)

                    for Obamacare.  Comments like "allegedly a Democrat" make it sound like Obama's trying to sabotage his own law's implementation.  Maybe it was intentional.  I'd have liked a stronger run at Christie, of course, but that's a state party issue.  

                    I presume the comment about Christie being a front runner was meant to amplify the supposed venality here.

                    We can't call someone form the other party on the phone after an election . . . come on.  Plus, as i said, it could well serve to amplify the Republican's own civil war.  Whether it's a bad idea is something for debate; whether it's rare is not advanced by repeating it with boldface text.  There were something like 4 elections of significance that day, so I see no reason not to call the guy, especially if they have a decent working relationship.  

                    The point about not knowing the significance was not so much not understanding RFKlives's argument, as not engaging in the activity of drawing wild inferences about the "real" Obama based on his own subjective interpretation of selectively chosen data points.  Ultimately, neither of us know why Obama called Christie, and ultimately, it tells us very very little about ACA enrollment, 2016, or anything else.

                    I might prefer Christie as the nominee to some of the teabaggers, as I think he, like Romney, is the most beatable candidate yet capable of performing some of the basic functions of governing.  He's wrong on his opposition to infrastructure spending and anti-unionism, but he's not nihilistic, so that counts as progress I suppose.

                    Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                    by Loge on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 08:11:31 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yes, it is (4+ / 0-)

                      it's also a diary about the "botched rollout". And frankly, that example (the phone call) is relevant because it kind of highlights the mentality driving the ship right now.

                      Unless they're actual friends, it was stupid--and yeah, it's nihilistic, in some ways--in terms of optics. And we both know that optics count in politics.

                      Comments like "allegedly a Democrat" make it sound like Obama's trying to sabotage his own law's implementation
                      .  

                      That's not even where I was headed (simply highlighting a bit of irony for each guy). But you know, that's an interesting point to wonder about if we've already had a silent coup. Which, for the record, I still think happened on some level either with the SCOTUS 2000 decision or when the PATRIOT Act was codified into law.

                      My bottom line? Nobody is this dense. Not just about that phone call, either.

                      This is, now and forever, Democratic Party law. Somebody in that white house needs to get on the fucking ball.
                      Like it or not--and I haven't much cared for bbb's take since the rollout, up to today--that's a correct statement. I said it somewhere else, he's finally boiled down to the essence on this thing. Time's a'wastin'.

                      This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                      by lunachickie on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 08:31:53 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  if you see something nefarious in one phone call, (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Lying eyes, poco, jqb, PsychoSavannah

                        that's a comment on you, not on Obama.  Sensible people would see nothing amiss whatsoever about it, but the optics are such that it's probably bad for Christie in the primary.  Admittedly, it was 5 minutes when Obama wasn't working on ACA rollout, but let's also not forget part of the way the law works is that many of the exchanges are run by state governments, so it's one area where bipartisan cooperation is probably essential.  But i think the point holds that unless you know what was going through Obama's mind when he called Christie, there's nothing really to make of it.  Also, the all-or-nothing frame is a bit incorrect.  Can the White House be doing more?  Surely, but I know some people from the '08 and '12 campaigns who are working full time on getting people signed up -- i'm sure they would like more resources and support, but saying someone (who exactly) should get on the ball (and do what) is kind of empty.

                        Huge day in Virginia, though, if MacAuliffe is able to get Medicaid expansion through the House of Delegates.

                        Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                        by Loge on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 09:33:40 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  . (6+ / 0-)
                          ne·far·i·ous (typically of an action or activity) wicked or criminal.
                          Right. Because I called that phone call wicked or criminal.

                          No. I called it STUPID.

                          Is it too much to ask that if you're going to debate people around here, that you at least learn to read and comprehend what you're responding to before you hit the "post" button?

                          Can the White House be doing more?  Surely
                          Then WHY AREN'T THEY?  You "know people". Ask them and then get back to us with a real reason.

                          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                          by lunachickie on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 09:47:27 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  ok, so i should have used a different word, (4+ / 0-)

                            God almighty get off your high horse.

                            i understand that you think it's stupid -- i also think that you are engaging in nothing more than confirmation bias.  if it's "indicative" of something, it's indicative of what you've already predetermined "the political climate" to be.  Whether or not it's stupid, is really too soon to tell.  It could be stupid, it could be cynical, it most likely is nothing because only people giving a rat's ass are you and a few cats at redstate who decide they hate Christie for no good reason.

                            i don't know the inner circle, and i never claimed otherwise.  I'd doubt, however, if they're unaware of the issues, but I don't know how to help them do this particular job better.  Neither strategy nor voter contact was my main job.  The people I'm referring to, however, are those who are out there doing things.  Do you know people who could use help navigating the sign-up process?  Talk to them and get back to us.  

                            Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                            by Loge on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 10:02:31 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Words matter. (0+ / 0-)

                            There's a freaking ocean of difference between wicked and stupid.

                            So many people here considered it to be "consorting with the enemy" when some Dems saw fit to support Justin Amash's bill to rein in the NSA by defunding it.

                            Same thing here, this call to Christie, by that definition. That's really not a difficult thing to understand.

                            Looked to me like you "knew some insiders" with this remark:

                            Can the White House be doing more?  Surely, but I know some people from the '08 and '12 campaigns who are working full time on getting people signed up --
                            but on reflection, that was a bad assumption--I know I worked to help get Mr. Obama elected, but that was way back in 2007, before I learned I was "a retard" and what-not. So my apologies there.

                            Now, having said that...

                            i'm sure they would like more resources and support

                            It's this President's legacy. GET THEM SOME MORE HELP.  

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 04:31:06 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You do realize ... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Phoenix Woman, Loge

                            ... you're fuming about phone calls and name calling, or more specifically, what you're choosing to read into phone calls and name calling.

                            Ah, memories of high school.  How they do come flooding back at times ...

                            But far be it for me to interrupt yet another thrilling installment of "The President Sucks" ...

                            Carry on.

                          •  Ug. I apologize for this comment ... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Phoenix Woman

                            I'm not my best self today.

                          •  yeah, i understand your argument dude. (0+ / 0-)

                            but you know what it sounds the most like?  Something from Politico, all inside personality stuff about who sits next to whom in the cafeteria.  Game Change III?

                            I was referring to field organizers in that comment - if you really know how campaigns work, that's the vast majority of people from a campaign, and the job I was describing is a field organizing job.  (They were the people who handed you the clipboard and told you which doors to knock and then talked about how unpleasant you seem to be after you were gone.)   But anyway, i hear about projects like setting up store-front enrollment centers in poor cities and groups that are slowly but surely actively hiring. So the idea that nobody is doing anything just doesn't ring true to me, since I'm not getting all, or any of, my information from Politico.

                            And speaking of words mattering, if you can find when I called anyone an "R" on this site, please enlighten me.   And of course, the general thrust of the argument, 'nefarious' aside which is I admitted the wrong word before you piled on, is that is't not really "stupid" so much as stupid to even have an opinion about, or at least capable of more than one interpretation.  When I wasn't sure of something you were saying, i gave you the chance to clarify before freaking out, also.

                            Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                            by Loge on Fri Nov 08, 2013 at 11:37:34 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, again (0+ / 0-)

                            I didn't call you that. If you have been keeping up with Professional Staffers of This Administration (or at least "one in particular"), you might have known what the reference was.

                            And this? No idea what you're on about here:

                            Something from Politico, all inside personality stuff
                            Get the staff some freakin' help? harkens to Politico? Ummmm, oooooooooookkkkkkkay....

                            This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

                            by lunachickie on Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 12:32:40 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  no, worrying about the effects of a (0+ / 0-)

                            courtesy phone call harkens to politico.   That's the part you suggested I got wrong.

                            Yeah, I guess Rahm did say the R-word in anger once or a hundred times.  I had put it more or less out of my mind.  When you put it right after a block-quote of me, not Rahm, it's hard to see the immediate connection to the 2010 legislative session, and I believe the instance you are referring to was NOT an attack on all liberals, progressive or slacktivists who evidently can't be bothered to volunteer in 2008 or 2012, but rather those who were proposing the specific tactic of running negative ads against blue dogs attacking for not supporting the ACA.  Whether that would have been dumb, we'll never know, but that was an intramural debate among people all on the side of getting Obamacare passed.  His rhetoric was clearly inappropriate, but I don't think it makes him the devil, and otherwise have little interest in revisiting the degree to which he is or isn't.

                            And yes, a lot of people need help in this world, you especially.  Breathe . . .  

                            Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

                            by Loge on Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 01:48:43 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  I saw someone refer to this as hallucinatory (0+ / 0-)

                          ideology.

                      •  NOT till the WEB site is Fixed! Jeeze (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Loge

                        quit being the drama queen. Sending a hoard to a non working site won't do anything but raise the anxiety level of many.

                        Let me make it simple. Calling Christie infuriated the Tea bags. It ties him to the hated Obama and Democrats. Tea baggers vote. Teabaggers are the base. They run the state conventions.

                        I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

                        by samddobermann on Fri Nov 08, 2013 at 03:32:42 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Christie's now trying for 2016 Prez slot (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    highacidity

                    Which means he has to run hard, hard right if he wants to have a prayer of surviving the GOP primaries.

                    Obama just gave Christie's primary opponents a big fat gift which will feature in their advertising all throughout the winter of 2015 and the spring of 2016.

                    Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

                    by Phoenix Woman on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 06:05:28 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  do you think Obama's call endeared (0+ / 0-)

                    Christie to his teabag base?

                    Why do you think Christie hasn't been mentioning it.

                    Your comment  was what you think of the call.

                    I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

                    by samddobermann on Fri Nov 08, 2013 at 03:19:51 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Perhaps it's genius on the president's part (3+ / 0-)

                  Perhaps he knows that a congrats from him is one more nail in Christie's presidential coffin where the extreme right is concerned.

                  The president is smart. The GOP is not. They HATE that.

              •  Not to mention a slap in the face to Barbara (20+ / 0-)

                Buono who never got Obama's or the national party's support.

                A Dem president calling a Dem gov to congratulate him isn't exactly news.  A president calling a re-elected gov from the other party who's clearly gearing up for a presidential run is unusual.  As to whether Christie will retain his likely front-runner status after Goopers actually start voting is a total unknown at present, and it's utterly beside the point.
              •  He thinks the neo-conservative movement has a (9+ / 0-)

                legitimate place in politics and government. It's Obama's greatest flaw.

                He has a kind of cruel pick-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps side that melds with the neo-cons.



                "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."

                - Louis Brandies

                by Pescadero Bill on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 08:30:18 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Regarding your Brandeis quote... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  RFK Lives, magnetics

                  Obama and his boo Christie would opt for the latter

                  I am an economic Keynesian, a social libertarian, a foreign policy internationalist, and militantly anti-authoritarian in every way shape and form.

                  by zemongoose on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 10:12:00 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Don't Be Cruel... (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  jqb, doinaheckuvanutjob, highacidity

                  ...Elvis!

                  He has a kind of [cruel?] pick-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps side [that melds with the neo-cons.]
                  Doesn't "pick-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps" reflect his own journey in life? Perhaps you need to look more closely at what having an absentee father upbringing does to a young man. I had to deal with that, and, believe me, it was hellish at times trying to not project the thick skin and sense of purposelessness that can occur as a result.

                  And then, there's the effect on your kids...Takes a while to heal from this, and I still have to catch myself at times. And I'm 72 yo.

                  I do not see "cruel" in Obama's behavior, resolute, yes.

                  Just reflect on the Medicare Part D rollout, or the Medicare rollout itself. Neither were smooth.

                  Yonder stands your orphan with his gun Crying like a fire in the sun ~Bob Dylan

                  by paz3 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 11:45:17 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Hmm... that is an interesting possibility to (0+ / 0-)

                  contemplate. Then again, it breaks down upon examination, to be a stretch. Why? Name a Neocon who ever had to live by having a cruel pick-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps life? Part of being a Neocon is being fabulously wealthy or on wingnut wealthy welfare, they don't do bootstraps, but they want it for every body else-The Kristols, the Feiths, etc.

                  The Pres isn't a neocon nor is his foreign policy neocon. Yes, he does have a bootstraps element I don't like in policy sometimes, as in his education policies, but upon examination, your interesting postulation breaks down. I'm not sure that his embrace of the infrastructure of the GWB national security state has anything to do with the cruel Neocon's reasons. I think it's more a political calculation that's pragamatic, but morally wrong.

                  I think he just has an idealized conception of how the system should work, bipartisan Village Idiocy. I don't really know why, but I guess being a Senator could cause some of that.

              •  Oh please. have you thought that Obama's (0+ / 0-)

                well publicized greeting could be called the "kiss of death?"

                It was a brilliant masterstroke.

                I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

                by samddobermann on Fri Nov 08, 2013 at 03:16:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  It's never a good sign when the President's own (0+ / 0-)

            Party suggests that he should go off to Dallas.

            Offer your heart some Joy every day of your life, and spread it along to others.

            by Truedelphi on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 01:13:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Everybody wants people to place nice... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Johnny Q, doinaheckuvanutjob, Key6119

            and get along. The difference is most of us make adjustments when we discover we are wasting our time trying to achieve that with certain individuals or groups. I thought President Obama was starting to get that with the shut-down.

            "We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both." - Louis D. Brandeis

            by VA6thDem on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 01:28:13 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  You may be confusing him with somone like St (13+ / 0-)

          Ralph, who had

          a long record of causes he's assumed and fought with all his heart to put across until they're real.
          Except that they never became real.  Unlike the ACA.

          This diary is a kvetch-fest, imo.  BBB, I assume you know that this "botched rollout" script was written 3 years ago by Republicans.  Why keep pushing it?

          Best.

          •  Ralph Nader? He has a shitload of things that (15+ / 0-)

            became real and saved lives and promoted progressive causes.

            He fought, and continues to fight, the corporatocracy and its oligarchical beneficiaries rather than kowtow to them.

            We should be so lucky to have such a president.

            Throughout his career, Nader has started or inspired a variety of nonprofit organizations, with most of which he has maintained close associations:

            Citizen Advocacy Center
            Citizens Utility Boards
            Congress Accountability Project
            Consumer Task Force For Automotive Issues
            Corporate Accountability Research Project
            Disability Rights Center
            Equal Justice Foundation
            Foundation for Taxpayers and Consumer Rights
            Georgia Legal Watch
            National Citizens' Coalition for Nursing Home Reform
            National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
            Pension Rights Center
            PROD (truck safety)
            Retired Professionals Action Group
            The Shafeek Nader Trust for the Community Interest
            1969: Center for the Study of Responsive Law
            1970s: Public Interest Research Groups
            1970: Center for Auto Safety
            1970: Connecticut Citizen Action Group
            1971: Aviation Consumer Action Project
            1972: Clean Water Action Project
            1972: Center for Women's Policy Studies
            1973: Capitol Hill News Service
            1980: Multinational Monitor (magazine covering multinational corporations)
            1982: Trial Lawyers for Public Justice
            1982: Essential Information (encourage citizen activism and do investigative journalism)
            1983: Telecommunications Research and Action Center
            1983: National Coalition for Universities in the Public Interest
            1988: Taxpayer Assets Project, WFHW-LP
            1989: Princeton Project 55 (alumni public service)
            1993: Appleseed Foundation (local change)
            1994: Resource Consumption Alliance (conserve trees)
            1995: Center for Insurance Research
            1995: Consumer Project on Technology
            1997: Government Purchasing Project (encourage purchase of safe products)
            1998: Center for Justice & Democracy
            1998: Organization for Competitive Markets
            1998: American Antitrust Institute (ensure fair competition)
            1998: Commercial Alert (protect family, community, and democracy from corporations)
            1999: Arizona Center for Law in the Public Interest
            2000: Congressional Accountability Project (fight corruption in Congress)
            2001: Citizen Works (promote NGO cooperation, build grassroots support, and start new groups)
            2001: Democracy Rising (hold rallies to educate and empower citizens)



            "We must make our choice. We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both."

            - Louis Brandies

            by Pescadero Bill on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 08:39:45 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Early on a great man was Nader. (17+ / 0-)

              Later, ego took hold and he helped deliver George W. to the WH in 2000.

              Should have quit while he was way ahead.

              I'll stop calling him Boner when he stops saying I belong to the Democrat Party.

              by al23 on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 08:59:58 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  St. Al Gore needed no help (6+ / 0-)

                to lose the election, and give up the fight for a recount in FL.

                don't always believe what you think

                by claude on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 09:15:09 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Hid ego had nothing to do with 2000 (6+ / 0-)

                That would have been the massive election fraud by the GOP. Purged voters rolls. The Brooks Brother Riot. Supreme Court selection. Nader played a minimal role in actually causing the problems. His ego was massive later on when he decided to screw over the Green Party. He lost the nomination so he went off on his own. That the real indicator of an ego.

                •  I dunno,he could have supported Gore in that last (8+ / 0-)

                  week, or in Florida for Election Day, or any number of things that would've been better than choosing to stay in way after he'd made his points.  He wanted to hurt the Dems, and he did.

                  •  He wanted to provide a third party option (4+ / 0-)

                    because he lives in a democracy and he rightfully saw the Dems as a corrupt neoliberal party. There will always be third parties and it's the failure of the Dems to be far enough left that gets those parties their votes. The green party would have been destroyed if it endorsed Gore.

                    He wanted to hurt the Dems, and he did.
                    He wanted to get votes, as did the green party. I've yet to see an analysis that shows that a significant number of green voters would have voted Dem if they hadn't voted green. Not to mention the fact that nearly 250k democrats voted for Bush in Florida. Maybe the party should work on keeping people from drifting right before they complain about a third of those numbers voting for the wrong  candidate.
                    •  Actually he did want to hurt the Dems. (4+ / 0-)

                      Not a crime, but true and very very costly.

                      Many, including me, see this as a classic lesson in 3rd party irresponsibility.  (I was working for Ralph myself, btw.) Others don't.  But nobody's gonna their change minds on this.  

                      Best.

                      •  Do you have any links to him talking about that? (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Johnny Q

                        I don't remember that being a theme in the campaign.

                        •  Gush/bore (5+ / 0-)

                          Nader's phrase for saying that GWB & Gore were the same.  That turned out to be a devastating mistake.

                        •  It was in his every action (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          al23, hooper

                          But he and his close advisors would admit it in unguarded moments, or when they felt they were among friends.

                          The sad thing is that he didn't even help the Greens all that much -- he absconded with the money he raised and didn't use it to help build up even the ASGP, under whose banner he ran.

                          From http://www.villagevoice.com/... --

                          Later I was introduced to Nader's closest adviser, his handsome, piercingly intelligent 30-year-old nephew, Tarek Milleron. Although Milleron argued that environmentalists and other activists would find fundraising easier under Bush, he acknowledged that a Bush presidency would be worse for poor and working-class people, for blacks, for most Americans. As Moore had, he claimed that Nader's campaign would encourage Web-based vote-swapping between progressives in safe and contested states. But when I suggested that Nader could gain substantial influence in a Democratic administration by focusing his campaign on the 40 safe states and encouraging his supporters elsewhere to vote Gore, Milleron leaned coolly toward me with extra steel in his voice and body. He did not disagree. He simply said, "We're not going to do that."

                          "Why not?" I said.

                          With just a flicker of smile, he answered, "Because we want to punish the Democrats, we want to hurt them, wound them."

                          There was a long silence and the conversation was over.

                          And:
                          Gary Sellers has a simpler way of putting it. Although Nader was the best man at Sellers's wedding, the two are no longer close. After extensive discussions with his old boss in late 1999, Sellers created Nader's Raiders for Gore in 2000. He believes Nader hated Gore, he told me, because "Gore wouldn't return his phone calls."

                          Ralph Nader exploited his reputation as a self-sacrificing idealist to pursue an utterly selfish goal. He claimed his purpose was to build the Green Party by drawing the 5 percent vote required for federal funding. But this was cover—a way of justifying his lust for revenge. Nader campaigned as the honest man who told the truth while lying about what he believed and wanted.

                          [...]

                          Nader's swing-state strategy was the crux of his anti-Gore game plan. If Nader had been truly committed to getting the Greens their 5 percent, he would have taken the safe-state route mapped out by many party advisers. In Stupid White Men, Michael Moore says he rejected Nader's invitation to join him in the battleground states as the election neared. Instead, Moore chose to work only "in those states where Ralph could get a lot of votes without being responsible for Bush winning the election." Places like New York, California, Massachusetts, and such liberal enclaves as Bush's own Austin, Texas, as Chait puts it, "offered the richest harvest of potential votes." This is what Reform Party candidate Patrick Buchanan did. Nader took precisely the opposite tack. He spent the last days of the campaign in swing states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, and, especially, Florida, which according to Sellers he visited five times all told. Pennsylvania and Michigan went Democratic, but Nader forced Gore to expend time and resources on states he should have had in his pocket. And in Florida, though Nader's poll numbers dipped from 6 percent to 4 to his final 1.6, his 97,488 voters tipped the election.

                          Reached by telephone recently, Martin explained Nader's motives as "a neat blend of his desire to go where the cameras and media are and his desire to make the Democrats pay." But even in the Nader camp this was at best partially understood. Danny Goldberg reported in Tikkun that Nader told supporters he wouldn't campaign late in swing states. Sellers suspects that Moore didn't get it until the last moment. And Ronnie Dugger, the veteran journalist who nominated Nader at the Green convention, learned about Nader's battleground-barnstorming strategy long after the election. "Why hasn't Nader been building the Green Party for the last four years?" he asked me. "Nader was more interested in beating Gore than beating Bush. And Nader has said he will not follow a safe-state strategy in 2004 either."

                          Visit http://theuptake.org/ for Minnesota news as it happens.

                          by Phoenix Woman on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 06:26:55 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  When Nader Was Asked... (7+ / 0-)

                        ...who he would vote for, Bush or Gore if someone put a gun to his head without hesitation he replied:

                        "Bush."

                        He made no bones about the fact that he wanted to hurt Gore in that election and he has blood on his hands for the 8 years this country will be paying dearly for for a long, long time.

                        “I believe all Southern liberals come from the same starting point--race. Once you figure out they are lying to you about race, you start to question everything.” ― Molly Ivins

                        by RoIn on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 11:19:08 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Yes, Ralph was great for a long time. Then not. (0+ / 0-)

                My point above was just the usual...Obama is President, and that's a whole different thing than Progressive Action Hero.  (Though If Johnson & Truman can make that list, he will too eventually.)

              •  that's an assinine statement (4+ / 0-)

                Ralph Nader has done more good for this country than Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and Barrack Obama and his bad is far outweighed by the bad of the those three guys.

                And for the 99th time Gore didn't fight for what was his in Florida and that is why he lost. You don't get to choose who you run against, you do choose how you run your campaign and if you are going to fight for every vote.

                I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

                by jbou on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 10:52:34 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  You left out hisunion busting of his own employees (0+ / 0-)

              and his pride in taking Republican money for his campaign in 2000 and 2004.

              He's also a millionaire from his stock investments. That wouldn't be so disturbing if he didn't behave like just another union buster. His excuses for rolling over his employees who just wanted a decent wage and reasonable benefits he could afford, claimed he could afford, is sickening.

        •  The examples are (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          samddobermann

          right in front of you.  You just don't want to see them.  Has he made mistakes?  Sure.  But I look at our country right now and then remember what it was like just before he took office.  Big change.  And when you take into account everything he has had on his plate, with a republican led house dedicated to obstructing everything he has tried to do, and a senate minority leader whose only goal was to get him out of office, I think he has done a decent job.  Add to that ending one war and winding down another, and repairing our relationship with the rest of the world (that is, until that NSA thing), and, again, a pretty decent job.  Oh, and killing bin laden, which no one had been able to do in over ten prior years.  It would be great if he could walk on water, but, to the best of my knowledge, only one person has mastered that, to date.
          Has his administration botched the roll-out of the ACA?  Definitely.  But he can't just drop everything else on his plate to focus solely on fixing it.  As far as enrollment numbers of younger, healthy, people into the ACA, it either will, or won't happen.

        •  Oh, come on (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          samddobermann

          Do we need to list what he's accomplished? IN SPITE OF the GOP's obstruction? Here are 50, just for starters:

          http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/...

          •  I can't believe he managed to tighten sanctions (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Johnny Q

            on Iran in the fave of GOP obstruction. They'd never let him do that.

          •  A good example of what I mean (0+ / 0-)
            1. Passed Health Care Reform: After five presidents over a century failed to create universal health insurance, signed the Affordable Care Act (2010). It will cover 32 million uninsured Americans beginning in 2014 and mandates a suite of experimental measures to cut health care cost growth, the number one cause of America’s long-term fiscal problems
            .
            Notice that that account doesn't actually tell us what he actually did to make it happen

            First of all, HE didn't "pass Obamacare," Congress did. He signed it but he didn't create it.
            Universal Healthcare was one of the goals of the Obama administration, or so they said but they never had a plan for it to begin with (Neither did the Democratic Party)  That's right, "After five presidents over a century failed to create universal health insurance," after debating it and trying to get Universal Healthcare passed for 6 decades, Obama and the Democrats had no basic plan to put forward.
            Pretty dam lame I thought at the time and still think so.

            that doesn't seem much like a "Preturnaturally gifted leader and politician," that seems like a schlunk, who finding himself in power throws out goals and objectives with no clear notion on how to achieve them.

            From wiki:  In the whole lengthy article, staring with "Healthcare debate" through "Senate and "House" on how Obamacare was enacted, these below are the ONLY sentences that mention Obama's contributions at all. It looks like Olympia Snowe had more input into the making of Obamacare than Obama did.
            Obama in no way looks like " a preternaturally gifted leader and politician in this. He looks like someone who sent his goals to Congress to make  real.

            After his inauguration, Obama announced to a joint session of Congress in February 2009 his intent to work with Congress to construct a plan for healthcare reform.[
            ......To maintain the progress of the legislative process, when Congress returned from recess, in September 2009 President Obama delivered a speech to a joint session of Congress supporting the ongoing Congressional negotiations.
            ...... Instead, President Obama issued Executive Order 13535, reaffirming the principles in the Hyde Amendment.[115
            Obama signed the ACA into law on March 23, 2010.[119] The amendment bill,
            If the other 49 things on that list are such a credit grab for other people's work, its really just a paean to Obama. If Obamacare is an example of what a "preternaturally gifted leader and politician" does than someone needs to study the terms Preturnaturally and gifted.

            Happy just to be alive

            by exlrrp on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 06:06:03 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  "He's not a dictator, you know" (0+ / 0-)

        Obama is a man of compromise.  Leadership doesn't enter much into his leadership style.

        You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment.-- Francis Urqhart

        by Johnny Q on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 04:12:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Don't forget that Clinton's HCR crashed & burned (26+ / 0-)

      dramatically in 1993. Remember "Hillarycare"? The "Harry & Louise" TV commercial? The 2008 Dems in Congress hadn't forgotten.

      If by some miracle, Single Payer had been enacted in 2009, it too would have had a lengthy and fractious "roll-out"... just like Social Security, Medicare and SSDI.

      Don't fall for the delusion that the "path not taken" is smooth and strewn with flowers.

      “It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing
      he was never reasoned into” - Jonathan Swift

      by jjohnjj on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 07:34:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  well, not really (0+ / 0-)
        If by some miracle, Single Payer had been enacted in 2009, it too would have had a lengthy and fractious "roll-out"... just like Social Security, Medicare and SSDI.
        The Feds could have simply lowered the Medicare eligibility age.

        That would have been a lot easier to do than to set up a difference "exchange" in every state.  Esp. when half of the states are run by people hostile to the law.

    •  And wasn't it republicans who first came up (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kombema, wader, Johnny Q

      with the name Obamacare?  And then the Democrats finally adopted it a long while later?

      Obamacare is a good example of that---altho it has his name on it
      •  It was smart to take R's "negative" term ... (3+ / 0-)

        ... and turn it against them, making it a badge of pride.  But ...

        After you've owned it, your #1 priority had damn well better be making sure it's really going to be something to be proud of.  

        That's not happening.  And that's really, really dumb.

        •  I'll never acknowledge that as a sound strategy. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JVolvo, RickD

          Republicans make harmful buzzwords (like Obamacare).

          Democrats adopt Republican words (like Obamacare) and try to "take them back" after years of the word being used in a vilifying sense. They use the words when there are obvious alternatives (The ACA, or "earned benefits" instead of "entitlements").

          It's not smart. In fact, it's just dumb.

          Banking on the American people to be able to sort all this out and declare the adult in the room the winner is a very big bet. -Digby

          by Boogalord on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 12:04:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Let's Be Honest About Bubba's Legacy (5+ / 0-)

      DADT, DOMA, Welfare "Reform", the last vestiges of Glass-Steagall were repealed under Clinton, Clinton's Healthcare Reform plan was DOA, Clinton's Administration was marred in scandal and plagued by inaction on many fronts....Sorry, I am not buying the crap about Clinton.  Who cares about how many babies you kiss or the pain you feel if you can't do something substantive to get to the root of the pain.

      •  And these days, as he winds up his life (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        RickD

        In the Oval Office, I get the feeling Obama is trying as hard as Clinton did, to make sure and please the Corporate One Percent so that when he leaves office, he gets the
        same deal of  $ 100,000 per speech in front of Corporate Podium, (or maybe more?) that Clinton got.

        Offer your heart some Joy every day of your life, and spread it along to others.

        by Truedelphi on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 01:25:18 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I do believe that there are (0+ / 0-)

          some distinct and subtle differences between Clinton and Obama...I think that (both) Clintons are motivated by money (no ifs, ands or buts).  I don't get the sense that Obama is as motivated by material rewards, but I do believe that he is fascinated and believes in the "inherent competency" of other elites (those who have educational backgrounds similar to his own, no matter how much evidence there is that they don't know what the heck they are talking about).  While I don't expect Obama to join the Peace Corp when he leaves office (and I do expect him to deliver some well paid speeches), I suspect that his path will be slightly different from Clinton...

    •  How about the "policy school" he conducted (0+ / 0-)

      at the House Republican issue conference in 2009, without notes, for, what, an hour and a half? He needs to recapture that mojo.

      Okay, the Government says you MUST abort your child. NOW do you get it?

      by Catskill Julie on Thu Nov 07, 2013 at 05:29:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Bullshit. Obama had a plan laid out in his (0+ / 0-)

      campaign materials. If you looked under Health care on his issues tab he had a brief summary then at the bottom you could click for a longer summary or for a white paper that was about 10 pages long that set out a detailed plan. Yes, it included a public option.

      He didn't get everything he wanted and there are some things in the law he hadn't had in the plan but it was pretty damn close.

      Do you think he should have handed each congress critter a copy and said "get to work?" That's about what Hillary did. Didn't work out too well, did it?

      Feh.

      I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

      by samddobermann on Fri Nov 08, 2013 at 02:49:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Yeah and Clinton got us a health care law (0+ / 0-)

      Oh wait! He didn't.

      Why don't you ask Pelosi about Obama input on the ACA? I'll bet she will differ from you.

      I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

      by samddobermann on Fri Nov 08, 2013 at 02:53:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I agree... (0+ / 0-)

      The CONCEPT behind the Affordable Care Act was better than the law that was actually passed. The IDEA of Barack Obama as President was more attractive than the job he's done since taking office. Pragmatism has not ruled the day in either case.

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