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View Diary: Blue Ribbon Task Force Says Army Field Manual on Interrogation Allows Torture, Abuse (37 comments)

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  •  Tip Jar (26+ / 0-)

    I suspect my charges of the Obama administration allowing the continuance of torture via the Army Field Manual, and especially its Appendix M, will be an "inconvenient truth" for many here, and cause no end of cognitive dissonance.

    But one must be true to the sufferings of the victims and bear witness for suffering, no matter the consequences.

    For those who are upset, remember that facts do not rely on diaries. They either exist in the world or they do not. And if these facts are true, then the society that countenances such things is in for one hell of a ride, because crimes do have consequences in this world, whether we will like it, or even will it, or not.

    War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

    by Valtin on Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 10:08:05 AM PST

    •  I suspect your charges will be dismissed by many (0+ / 0-)

      here because you offer no evidence for them.

      I also suspect that people use the term "cognitive dissonance" in place of evidence to make it seem somehow inappropriate to notice factual and logical falsehoods.

      Your language could not make it clearer that you have nothing but the Obot Wars in mind. You project more than an IMAX Theater.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 11:01:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I would hope you could be more specfic (13+ / 0-)

        I welcome criticisms of my analysis, and that of scholars and doctors and ethicists, on the issue of torture in Army Field Manual. Instead, you wish to criticize my use of the term "cognitive dissonance."

        I am not interested in the Obot Wars. I am only interested in ending torture. But if that means the Obama Administration must come in for criticism, just as the administration before it, or other countries as well, from the UK to Saudi Arabia to Israel to Russia, and more... well, I am an equal opportunity critic.

        I don't think you actually looked at the evidence in the brief time it took you to comment. You can prove me wrong by posting something substantive here.

        War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

        by Valtin on Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 11:29:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think this is why your diaries tend to... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Valtin, dharmafarmer

          stay somewhat placid. You offer far too much documentation and quotation to make for very good conversation with folks like joe. You're bringing forward a very similar case to the one you've made against the Bush Administration, with similar credibility. You've exhaustively covered each angle.

          Meaning a tantrum like joe's necessarily burns out after the first comment or two because there isn't much beyond "nuh uh" to say. You place us so far beyond a debate about what the record shows to be fact that there's little to actually flame about

          "The Democratic Party is not our friend: it is the only party we can negotiate with."

          by 2020adam on Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 04:27:10 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, my model when it comes to argument (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, dharmafarmer, 2020adam

            is Charles Darwin. (I did original research on his life for my dissertation, reading tons of his letters.) He assembled an overwhelming amount of evidence because he knew his critics were motivated and ready to pounce. He felt that one convinced one's opponents slowly, and that leaving a documentary record of your facts and arguments was something of a legacy.

            I'm hoping that sooner or later, what I write about will get heard. In fact, I already know it has... behind the scenes. Even sometimes not behind the scenes. If you download the IMAP/OSF report, you'll see my work footnoted a few times, particularly the work I did with Jason Leopold on mefloquine and use of other drugs on detainees at Guantanamo. As a result of that work, and even though the former head of the Naval Hospital at Guantanamo was on their panel, IMAP/OSF became the first major task force to publicly call for investigation of the mefloquine use at Guantanamo.

            Sometimes things do pay off.

            War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

            by Valtin on Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 06:51:33 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  What documentation? (0+ / 0-)

            The diarist provides not a single word of documentation to backup his charge of torture by the Obama administration.

            You people seem to have adopted the pretense of being evidence-based in place of actually doing the work of providing evidence.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:23:55 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Still here, champ. Not burned out. (0+ / 0-)

            Still pointing out the complete lack of evidence for the claim of torture under the Obama administration.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:26:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  It's not the Army Field Manual that's the problem. (0+ / 0-)

          It's your baseless assertions of torture happening under Obama.

          The bit about the AFM language was actually quite good. Too bad you just couldn't stop yourself from pushing bullshit. This could have been a good diary about the AFM and the report.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:23:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Nothing like fanning "wars" flames, is there? (10+ / 0-)

        You even jump the tip jar to do it?

        If you don't want "O wars," then don't fan the flames. Your accusatory language is just on the line of HR-able. Attacking the diarist's honesty and motivations under the tip jar is certainly a case of DBAD.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Sat Nov 09, 2013 at 12:46:04 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Check out Rolling Stone article on same (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        dharmafarmer

        Maybe some younger readers here, not knowing what's behind all this, will feel more trusting of the fact-checkers at Rolling Stone than they do from "joe from Lowell". The article there covers the same report I do, and makes some of the same general points.

        http://www.rollingstone.com/...

        War is the statesman's game, the priest's delight, The lawyer's jest, the hired assassin's trade Invictus

        by Valtin on Sun Nov 10, 2013 at 08:25:39 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Once again, that's not the baseless part. (0+ / 0-)

          I'm not taking exception to anything in the report, but to the wholly evidence-free assertion of torture by the Obama administration that you felt the need to cram into the diary.

          Art is the handmaid of human good.

          by joe from Lowell on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:25:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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