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View Diary: White House Publicly Breaking with Israel on ... Palestine (320 comments)

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  •  I see nothing new here (4+ / 0-)

    The US government has never been supportive of the settlements whether the Administration is  Democratic or Republican. This is not a "break" in relations with Israel, it is just a continuing difference of opinion on settlements.  I have yet to see the Palestinians pledge anythoing in the form of compromise to Israel. Many of the commentators on this issue which hold Israel to an impossible standard  of negotiating with entities that want only to destroy them,  speak just as voraciously  when  arguing  that  democrats have no negotiating partner and that the republicans refuse to compromise.  When the Palestinians actually seek peace and are willing to  provide actual concessions, then we can talk!

    •  Whelp All Israel keeps doing is making it (11+ / 0-)

      easier for us to make that case.  They are being irrational. They don't want peace if they did they wouldn't keep doing foolish things.  They are surrounded by people who don't want them to be there.  Their neighbors tolerate them. WHY continue to do things to inflame the situation?  The US no longer has the power it held in the Middle East to protect Israel.  So, it behooves them to try (for real) and make peace with their neighbors.  

    •  What would U like to see the Palestinians concede? (21+ / 0-)

      All of their confiscated territory? And offer to move to Wisconsin? Would that make the Likudniks 'happy'? Or  would they still want to exterminate them?

    •  you sound like... (8+ / 0-)

      ... a republican complaining that Obama and the democrats didn't 'negotiate' on the last debt limit fight and government shutdown.

      We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

      by delver rootnose on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:00:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  just the opposite (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        leftynyc, Koopatroopa, Hey338Too

        I thought that Obama should NOT have negotiated with the Rpeublicans because they were not willing to compromise and it showed through their extremist views. I think also that  the Israelis  will not have a partner  to negotiate with until the Palestinians are willing to  compromise on  their positions. Israel has given land for peace with the Egyptians, has also  removed itself from Gaza. They have shown time and again a willingness to compromise, I do not see  the Palestinians giving up one demand at anytime. that is the analogy I was drawing.

        •  so what do you think the Palastinians.... (22+ / 0-)

          ....should give up that hasn't already been taken from them?  Israel is not a serious negotiating partner.  It hasn't been so since Carter's time.

          We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

          by delver rootnose on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:10:27 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How about... (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JNEREBEL, Koopatroopa

            the demand that Jerusalem be divided and that millions of Palestinians are admitted into Israel.

            •  so basically you... (10+ / 0-)

              ...are saying they should give up key pieces of what they want just to start talking.  (Sounds like the republicans and the ACA.)  And if the Palestinians accept this what is Israel offering in return?  Allowing them to continue to exist, just not in Israel.

              We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

              by delver rootnose on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:36:01 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  In exchange for precisely what, 1918. (12+ / 0-)

              The problem you have here is that Israel has used US favoritism and its own huge army and nukes to take more and more of what it wants,  the return of none of which is negotiable.  

              And to put several million people across borders and into unrelated lands and nations, who are being required to make permanent this supposedly temporary refugee move. Or the Palestinians who were flat out forced out of Jerusalem in 1967.

              I'm sorry that the currnet run of Israeli governments want peace on their terms as a freebee, but as long as it insists on no right of return, that is, Lebanon and Syria and Jordan have to keep millions of P refugees forever, without reference to their own countries' needs and cultures, peace will only be a temporary matter, until something changes. And the settlement building they intend to keep doing, even if not in E1, only makes more nearly impossible any resolution other than a one state solution because those settlements have scarfed up the best land and substantially all of the water.

              Now, please tell us what it is that Israel is giving up for peace. I don't see any of it.

              What Kerry has said seems to me to make clearer that there will be a US peace proposal in January anda the settlements will be in the middle of it. I look forward with interest to seeing that plan, because it will have force behind it.

              •  I dare Kerry… (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                …to simply recognize Palestine as independent (Gaza should be too, but won't happen). Palestine may not get it's desired borders, but making the Israelis occupiers would be a huge step forward.

                Union-printed, USA-made, signs, stickers, swag for everyone:

                by DemSign on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 10:50:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The failure of the peace talks will make the (3+ / 0-)

                  international recognition of the Palestinian state(s) inevitable in the fairly short term,  the formalization of the illegality of occupation a short step behind, and then Israel and all those people who may not support the government who does it but benefit from the acts of that government, will really be in the soup.  

                  And everyone here should recognize that as soon as the peace talks fail, all the stuff that the Israeli side has been carrying as nonnegotiable but secret will be out and visible, even as they continue to demand what else the Ps will give up from what the I side has not already taken.

        •  What compromise has Israel offered? (3+ / 0-)

          You're asking Palestinians to make concessions without asking the regional superpower, Israel, to do the same.  When will Israel end settlement expansion into Palestinian territory?  They don't need a Palestinian concession to do that -- they just need a conscience!  When will Israel recognize Palestine?  When will Israel concede half of Jerusalem?  When will Israel concede the right for Palestinians to come and go without subjecting themselves to humiliating checkpoints?  When will Israel relinquish its stranglehold on the Palestinian economy?

          None of these things will happen no matter how much Palestinians concede because Israelis and their supporters don't want these things to happen.  Ever.  Many of them believe might is right, and that Israel is their due, God's will.  You can't really negotiate with that.  

          What Israel should do?  Go back to '48 borders AND submit their nuclear weapons to international inspection.

          The civil rights, gay rights and women's movements, designed to allow others to reach for power previously grasped only by white men, have made a real difference, and the outlines of 21st century America have emerged. -- Paul West of LA Times

          by LiberalLady on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:35:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  What exactly do the Palestinians have to give up? (30+ / 0-)

      All that land? The state that they haven't got?

      Israel is holding all the cards and is responsible for the vast majority of the deaths in the conflict. They're the one's who refuse to give, they just continue to take, as shown by the continued expansion of the settlements.

      •  more people are killed... (8+ / 0-)

        ...every year by gunfire in Chicago than by Palestinian caused violence in Israel.  Could you imagine the uproar if the Chicago police used the same tactics as the IDF and Israel.

        We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

        by delver rootnose on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:17:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Not so (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          More people are killed in Chicago

          But, before Israel clamped down and put up defensive fortifications Palestinian terrorists were blowing up pizza parlors and attacking bus lines.

          You have to ask if the death toll has fallen because of the Palestinians abandoning violence or the Israeli countermeasures being successful in preventing them from causing innocents to die.

          •  just out of curriosity... (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            corvo, AoT, wu ming, Smoh, happymisanthropy

            ..what was the largest yearly death toll due to terrorism in Israel from Palestinians. Just curious.

            We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

            by delver rootnose on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 01:47:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Israel Civilian Deaths by Year (6+ / 0-)

              The worst year for Israeli civilian deaths was 2002 with 457 killed.  That year Israel's population was 6.6 million (current population 8.1 million).  In 2002, the US population was 288 million.  So, the death toll in Israel would have been equivalent to just under 20,000 American deaths - or more than six times the number killed at the World Trade Center & Pentagon.

              Last year, only four civilians were killed by terrorists -- a decline of more than 99%.

              Year      Number of Civilian Deaths

              1920    9

              1921    24  (Arabs riot and slaughter Jewish community in  Jaffa - similar number of arabs killed when British put down riots)

              1922    5
              1923    0
              1924    4
              1925    1
              1926    1
              1927    1
              1928    0
              1929    119

              (Arabs attack Jews who sought access to Wailing/Western Wall; a similar number of Arabs were killed when the British put down riots)

              1930    0
              1931    2
              1932    4
              1933    0
              1934    0
              1935    1
              1936    44
              1937    10
              1938    94
              1939    26
              1940    137
              1941    14
              1942    4
              1943    1
              1944    3
              1945    1
              1946    28
              1947    152 (Violence leading up to UN Partition plan)
              1948    379 (Founding of Israel; British evacuation)
              1949    37
              1950    52
              1951    41
              1952    40
              1953    46
              1954    41
              1955    30
              1956    53  (British/French/Israel invade Egypt)
              1957    19
              1958    15
              1959    10
              1960    11
              1961    8
              1962    10
              1963    7
              1964    9
              1965    10
              1966    10
              1967    16  (Six day war - Sinai/W Bank/Golan captured)
              1968    55
              1969    33
              1970    74   (PLO driven out of Jordan; into Lebanon)
              1971    18
              1972    46  (Munich Massacre - '72 Olympiad)
              1973    27  (Yom Kippur War)
              1974    67  
              1975    39  (UN Resolution 242; Zionism = Racism)
              1976    14  
              1977    9
              1978    57  

              (Coastal Road Massacre - PLO attacks bus killing 25 adults, 13 children, Israel invades southern Lebanon in response to "clean out" PLO and sets up "buffer zone" - 10 km deep; 300-1000 PLO/civilians killed by Israel, 100k+ refugees flee fighting; Peace treaty with Egypt - Israel gives up Sinai penninsula)

              1979    10  
              1980    16
              1981    14
              1982    6

              Israel invades southern Lebanon following PLO violation of ceasefire; PLO flees to Tunis; Christian Lebanese forces massacre Palestinian civilians 700-3500 unarmed civilians killed; no Israeli forces present, but Ariel Sharon (future Israeli PM) held negligent by committee investigating the incident since it was felt Israeli forces should have prevented the massacre)

              1983    21
              1984    9
              1985    27
              1986    14
              1987    11 First Infitada begins 12/87
              1988    16
              1989    40
              1990    33
              1991    21  UN Resolution 242 revoked
              1992    34
              1993    45  Oslo Peace Accords between Isr & PLO
              1994    65  Israel & Jordan sign peace treaty
              1995    29  
              1996    56
              1997    41
              1998    16
              1999    8
              2000    43  Yasser Arafat launches 2nd Intifada
              2001    207
              2002    457
              2003    213
              2004    124
              2005    53  Final Israeli withdrawal from Gaza
              2006    29
              2007    13
              2008    36
              2009    6
              2010    10
              2011    21
              2012    9
              2013    4

              •  That's a lot of dead civilians. n/t (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                by JNEREBEL on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:43:46 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  That seems like a rather small number (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Smoh, PJEvans, Johnny Q, too many people

                  compared to, say, the number of murders in major metro area in the US. Chicago had more murders every year than Israelis died in terrorist attacks. And it has a third of the population. Most years the numbers for Chicago are an order of magnitude bigger.

                  And what are the numbers for Palestinians?

                  •  How many dead civilians is not acceptable? n/t (0+ / 0-)

                    "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                    by JNEREBEL on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 05:51:32 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So we should treat the people in Chicago (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      poco, WattleBreakfast

                      like Israel treats Palestine?

                      •  Please answer my question. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                        "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                        by JNEREBEL on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 08:31:47 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  How many Israeli civilians? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          delver rootnose

                          Should we set up checkpoints around Chicago to stop all the civilians from dying?

                          Hoe many Palestinian civilian deaths are acceptable? It's pretty clearly as many as it will take.

                          •  Your refusal to answer is an answer. Not one (0+ / 0-)

                            you may like known, but one nonetheless.

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 11:56:37 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And your refusal to answer? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            delver rootnose

                            What does that mean?

                            Or do you get held to your own special standard? Ten times as many Palestinian casualties are acceptable but a tiny number of Israeli casualties aren't.

                            But there's no racism here. None at all.

                          •  Why would I answer you after you would not (0+ / 0-)

                            answer my question?

                            But, unlike others (not necessarily you), I do not seek to state a view and then attempt to hide.  If I don't state my viewpoint how can I learn from others?

                            I abhor all civilian deaths. I also recognize that in war civilians will be killed.  Which is why violence and war are evil albeit sometimes a necessary evil.  

                            I do have a greater abhorrence for those that intentionally target civilians in their attacks as well as those that hide behind civilians while attacking civilians.

                            Do you agree?

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 01:11:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So then how many civilian deaths is acceptable? (0+ / 0-)

                            I didn't see an answer there. You hemmed and hawed about how the civilians were killed, but I'm more concerned with the fact that they are being killed in large numbers and why they are being killed, and how the living civilians are being treated. I think the number of civilians killed by guns in Chicago is entirely unacceptable, but I think shutting down the paths into and out of the city in an attempt to stop it would be far worse. That's essentially what Israel has done, declared that it's civilians are sacrosanct and that Palestinians lives are worth nothing.

                            Israel purposely pursue strategies of collective punishment and yet the people killed by those strategies are justified because they somehow "didn't mean" to kill civilians. The fact of the matter is that Israel knows for a fact that attacking will mean civilian deaths mean that they do in fact intentionally target civilians. When you set of a bomb that you know will kill civilians you are intentionally killing those civilians. When you do so in defense of ethnic cleansing it's all the worse.

                            And honestly, if you have a better tactic for Palestinians to pursue then I'm all ears, because every time they stop rocket attacks the colonization begins again. And please don't insult me my telling me that peaceful means are going to get them anywhere, Israel has well demonstrated that peaceful resistance just end with death and jail. Israel is a deeply racist country, more so than even the US at this point, and that's saying something. They are never gong to peacefully resolve the situation in any way except one that end with the unconditional surrender of Palestinians, anything else is entirely unacceptable to Israel.

                          •  If you want to discuss please stop with the (0+ / 0-)

                            black and white statements.

                            Unless of course you can show me where I said civilian deaths incurred as part of an attack on legitimate targets are "acceptable".

                            There are levels of culpability here.  War has always dealt in civilian deaths so yes an attack will likely result which is why there is no war crime for all civilian deaths generated by war but rather with the proportion of the deaths in relation to the nature of the strike.  

                            War crimes are certainly committed though when combatants intentionally target civilians and use civilians as shields.  

                            Can you not acknowledge that as such? If not, why not?

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Mon Nov 18, 2013 at 03:52:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So then why won't you answer the question (0+ / 0-)

                            You felt it necessary to imply that there was something horrible about my view because I wouldn't answer it.

                            War crimes are certainly committed though when combatants intentionally target civilians and use civilians as shields.  
                            The phrase "intentionally target" is misleading. It implies that the Israeli and US militaries really didn't want to kill civilians when they intentionally targeted "militants". Putting aside the problem of who the supposed militants actually are, the fact of the matter is that if you drop a bomb that kills civilians you intentionally killed civilians, period. Powerful nations choose to pretend that they're better because they didn't "target" those civilians, even though they killed them just as good.

                            Ultimately we're talking about a group who has no ability to fight the Israeli military. They lack any ability to injure Israel at all except for a dozen or so people who they manage to kill every year with shitty home made rockets. I'm sure they'd be happy to take some guided missiles and helicopter gun ships from the US so they could fight back in a way that actual countries deem acceptable. People will resist using the means they have.

                            Of course, all that ignores the fact that Israel targets Palestinian civilians for torture and killing all the time. But that doesn't count for some reason because it's "defense". Never mind that it's defense of colonialism. And this isn't war, it's an occupation and an insurgency. And the only acceptable for of resistance is none from what you've said. I mean, people organize a boycott and it's horrible and racist. Palestinians resist non-violently and they get arrested and everyone asks why they aren't resisting non-violently. Then when they finally speak the only language that the colonizers listen to they are even more immoral. So no, it's not black and white, especially not on the side of the Palestinians. That side is just black in regards to any means of resistance open to them.

                            And the worst of all this is you seem to know that Israel is run by right wing douche bag ideologues that will never give up the expansion of the colonies in Palestinian territories. And yet you can't admit that they have a right to resist. Shit, you can't even say the words ethnic cleansing even though it's clearly what happened and what is happening.

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            It is not misleading. Your assumption that targeting terrorists as not proper because others will be harmed is precisely why it is a war crime for combatants to hide amongst the civilian population.  It cannot be expected and is not expected that a nation will allow its civilians to be attacked and killed without defending them.  If terrorists launch rocket attacks at cities without a military value and do so while hiding amongst civilians it is a war crime precisely because the expected resultant attack will highly endanger civilians.  The prohibition is not on the targeted response but rather on the act that initiated it.  And for good reason.

                            Of course Israel has a right to exist under idiot right wingers just like America had a right to exist under our own idiot right wingers.  They will not always be in power.

                            Thanks for the dialogue.

                            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                            by JNEREBEL on Wed Nov 20, 2013 at 07:50:25 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Urban Chicagoland and Israel… (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    …have roughly the same population (8m).

                    Union-printed, USA-made, signs, stickers, swag for everyone:

                    by DemSign on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 11:00:48 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  So just to be clear then, (7+ / 0-)

                when you talk about civilian deaths due to terrorism, you're not including acts committed by Israeli terrorist groups, like the King David Hotel bombing, etc.

                •  That's right (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Koopatroopa, JNEREBEL, livosh1

                  The list is only Israeli/Jewish deaths, which is what delver rootnose originally asked about.

                  It is very difficult to quantify deaths of Arabs combatants/non-combatants because the terrorist organizations blend into the communities.

                  Other problem is nature of the war.  Hamas/PLO has tried to maximize deaths of Israeli civilians targeting things like pizza parlors, bus lines, hotels to cause maximum pain.   They have also used the civilian population in Gaza/Lebanon as a shield against Israeli attack so when Israel strikes at them it creates a great opportunity to portray Israel as bloodthirsty.

                  Also, would like to point out that the King David Hotel (July, 1946) was the headquarters of the British army in Palestine and that is why it was chosen as a target; the attack was carried out by the Irgun - a splinter group that was more violent than the Haganah the main Jewish paramilitary group; and a warning was called in by Irgun to the King David Hotel giving them the opportunity to evacuate the hotel, but the warning was ignored as a hoax, since the British authorities did not believe that anyone was audacious enough to launch a direct strike on the British command center.

              •  Let's see the Palestinian deaths, side by side (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Johnny Nucleo

                year by year.

                Then let's see total destroyed Israeli houses next to Pdlestinian houses.

                Then let's see total acreage/hectares of olive orchards and other farm land, Israeli versus Palestinian.

                That will give a little clearer picture.

                This health care system is a moral atrocity. Dr. Ralphdog

                by AllisonInSeattle on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 03:32:54 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Numbers = Morality? (0+ / 0-)

                  No, actually it confuses the picture.

                  Numbers do not equal morality.  During, WW2 American bombers killed hundreds of thousands of Germans.  Our own losses, though horrible were a fraction of the number of Germans killed.  

                  Does that fact, give moral authority to the Nazis?

                  If Hamas, et al were to give up violence tomorrow, then real peace talks would begin almost immediately.  If the Israelis were to lay down there arms and become Amish tomorrow, there would be a bloodbath.

                  Attempts at using statistics notwithstanding.

            •  457, which is lower than the (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Smoh, JVolvo, happymisanthropy, Johnny Q

              641 murders in Chicago that year.




          •  No, there has never been a year (7+ / 0-)

            where the number of Israeli victims of terror has been larger than the number of homicides in Chicago.



            Certainly the death toll in Israel has fallen, but for most years it isn't even close to Chicago. Like an order of magnitude lower.

            •  Point? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Koopatroopa, JNEREBEL

              I think that says something negative about our/American tolerance for violence in our cities than about the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

              •  The point is that Chicago has always had (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poco, WattleBreakfast, sethtriggs

                a higher rate of murders than Israel has a rate of terrorist deaths, which contradicts the claim of the comment I was responding to. So I guess the point was that you were factually and completely wrong when you said:

                More people are killed in Chicago

                But, before Israel clamped down and put up defensive fortifications Palestinian terrorists were blowing up pizza parlors and attacking bus lines.

          •  Oops, wrong link (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JVolvo, happymisanthropy, poco

            This should be the link for Israel


        •  be patient; (6+ / 0-)
          Could you imagine the uproar if the Chicago police used the same tactics as the IDF and Israel
          we're getting there.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 02:08:09 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  You are correct (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JNEREBEL, Koopatroopa

        they have neither of those to give up. However as Palestinians demonstrated by their unwillingness to accept what Olmert was prepared to give, all they have to give up are their demands and expectations.

    •  This is why I think Americans are brainwashed (26+ / 1-)

      Ok.  Palestinians have no rights.  They are ruled under a military occupation.  They can't have lawyers, they can't travel.  If their children are shot or their homes are bulldozed, there is no recourse.  This is the largest population of stateless refugees in the world, only made possible by billions in US aid every year.

      And you think the problem here is that the occupied are not willing to negotiate?  You live in a fucked up world.

      Israelis, even ones who live in Palestine, have strong protections of civil law, have rights to attorneys, may travel freely, may not be detained by military forces, have the protections of a nuclear-armed government, and access to state provided health care and education.  

      And Palestinians have nothing.  And in your wormy brain, it is the Palestinians who are being unreasonable.  Wow.  

      Israel does not want peace.  Peace would mean Palestinians would be protected by civil law.  Israel wants a cessation of violence on terms that it dictates.  That is not peace.  It is not Palestine that is obstructing peace here.

      •  I think Americans are racist (4+ / 0-)

        Israel is closer to us culturally because of the ties between Israel and American Jews and as such Americans will support Israel.

        And really, when has the majority of the population of the US opposed using violence against people of color when it wasn't too terribly visible and the media told us that the people of color were violent? It seems like standard operating procedure here in the US.

        •  In all fairness, we have equal Muslim-Americans (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, Winston Sm1th, JNEREBEL

          by percent, almost, as well, at about 1% of the population, vs. about 2% of Jewish-American populations. There are fewer areas of the country with high densities of Muslim-Americans than of Jewish-Americans, however.

          As a Jewish-American, I would say we are both cultural minorities. 10% of this 2%, or .2% of all Jewish-Americans are also non-Ashkenazi and will thus look pretty Middle Eastern.

          I have a large number of Palestinian-American students this year (some of whom look passably white to me). I'm not sure why, but it's been remarkable: they are more easily able to understand the kinds of ethnic bias I discuss when talking about anti-Semitism. I've certainly had lots of Muslim students one way or another from being in the Bay Area where there is a healthy Muslim population overall. So I guess I'm trying to say that when it comes to ethnic minorities in the U.S., sometimes we can more easily get along and even really identify with each other than people might think.  

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 06:42:59 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  It's more than that, I think. (5+ / 0-)

        I would argue a major reason so many Israeli leaders don't want peace is that war-related fear is more likely to get them re-elected, at least in their minds.

    •  We Need To Stop Paying Israel's (3+ / 0-)

      military bill at the expense of the USA's national interest.  

      Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

      by tikkun on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:19:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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