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View Diary: White House Publicly Breaking with Israel on ... Palestine (320 comments)

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  •  I'm an American. (49+ / 0-)

    Tom, I hear what you're saying, but I'm an American.

    My country elected Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush president. Twice.

    I really can't find it in me to criticize any other country's electoral choices.

    -Jay-
    
    
    
    •  I agree...especially the Israeli left is (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FischFry, joe from Lowell

      arguably the most pathetic liberal coalition in democratic politics.

      •  There is a diversity of opinion in Israel and the (28+ / 0-)

        left is not silent nor is it 'pathetic'.

        However, with the instability in the region...there is a reticence even among my most progressive Israeli friends.

        Lebanon, Syria, and Iraq are disasters.  The Saudis are religious extremists.  Egypt is in the midst of revolution and counter revolution.

        I still believe peace is possible...but with neighbors like the Israelis have, I understand the reluctance of their progressive citizens to be too vocal right now.

        That being said, Netanyahu is a first class jerk, and the Palestinians deserve a state.

        •  "tiny, fragmented, and demoralized" (9+ / 0-)

          would seem to be the best description I can come up with for the Israeli "left."

          Oh, and maybe "demographically doomed."

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 02:19:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The evidence of such a statement is...... (8+ / 0-)

            Particularly the clairvoyance as to the 'doom' of the left.  

            I'm pretty sure the world said the same thing when we elected Ray-Gun and Snort twice.  Well Snort was never legitimately elected but you get my drift.

            Democracies go through cycles much like everything else human.  

            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

            by JNEREBEL on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:03:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, that means what, 30 more years of the right? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              poco, corvo, Kombema, JesseCW

              I don't know that 30 years of the right would bode well for Israel or Palestine. Is there a demographic change happening that will change the political calculus like what is happening here?

              •  Political views are not solely dictated by (3+ / 0-)

                demographics as I am sure you are well aware.

                So no, it does not mean another 30 years of the right.

                "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                by JNEREBEL on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:41:20 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No they aren't, but that doesn't change (6+ / 0-)

                  my question. Is there some reason to expect the right will lose influence? Because your example was the rise of the right in the US and it's subsequent fall and that was riven by demographics.

                  I'm not trying to be combative here and I think my first comment came off like that, it just doesn't seem very reasonable to think that Israel is going to suddenly swing to the left barring some sort of change.

                  •  Yes, there is a reason to expect a change. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    livosh1, AoT

                    Because politics and democracy are cyclical. Always has been and there is no reason to believe it will not continue to be so.

                    Knowing in advance what the issue or event that triggers the change is difficult to foresee for most if not all instances.  Demographics can play a role, internal events, external events, there is a wide range of factors that could be the tipping point.

                    I don't if it will be tomorrow or five years from tomorrow. I do know it will happen as it always has in the past.

                    "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                    by JNEREBEL on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 05:47:06 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Sorry, not true. You really don't have any (6+ / 0-)

                      historical evidence of "cyclical" democracy to cite, other than as an assertion.

                      Because politics and democracy are cyclical. Always has been and there is no reason to believe it will not continue to be so.

                      "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                      by Kombema on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:00:26 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  It sounds like you're hoping (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      JesseCW, corvo

                      for change and don't have a specific reason to expect it.

                    •  Sometimes political systems metastasize. (0+ / 0-)

                      That's pretty much what we're witnessing worldwide, as that "opposition parties" that traditionally opposed the capitalist order in fact become part of it.  In Israel in particular, hypercapitalism hides remarkably effectively behind a particularly pronounced nationalism.  Always and everywhere a poisonous combination, and one that is rarely defeated at the ballot box.

                      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                      by corvo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:37:47 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  The 'metastasize' phenomena is nothing new (0+ / 0-)

                        to democracy.  Time and again existing dominant parties have attempted to prolong their own relevance by modifying their positions to accommodate new political pressures.  Sometimes it is successful for a period of time and others none. Each though does typically lead to the eventual downfall of one party and the emergence of another.

                        "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                        by JNEREBEL on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 08:23:59 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Which kind of shoots holes (0+ / 0-)

                          in your 30-year window.

                          In extreme cases, that downfall has to be effected from outside.  Israel had better hope not to have to fall into that category.

                          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                          by corvo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 09:18:20 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  America just filed for divorce with Israel. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT, AllisonInSeattle

                    The World knows that the GOP is psycho. If they win another election, the rest of the world will quarantine us.

                    The rest of the civilization is centuries older than we are. They've seen this over and over. They have only recently stopped killing each other over land and religion.  We are just beginning that cycle.  How quickly we recover is up to us.

                    I'm betting on the collapse of the sock puppet legislator.  Talking heads have the unfortunate habit of not knowing when to shut up.  The full flowering of that is Mitt Romney. Technology savvy Younguns barely understand the Elder world of privacy and anonymity.

                    They live their lives on utube.

                    Joy shared is doubled. Pain shared is halved. Spider Robinson

                    by nolagrl on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:44:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  America hasn't even gone in for couples (6+ / 0-)

                      counseling yet.

                      My bet is that whatever proposal the US advances in January will be 90% of what Likud wants.   Likud will throw fits about how horrible it is.

                      Palestinians will reject it, because it's a shit deal for them.  We'll al be told to focus on how loud Bibi&Co. were screaming, as evidence that the deal was supposedly reasonable.  This will be evidence that Palestinians are unreasonable.

                      This game has now happened three times in the past.  This is what American Presidents do so they can write their "I tried but Arabs are crazy" chapter in their memoirs.

                      Two Bush's and a Clinton later, we should recognize the script.

                      "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                      by JesseCW on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 08:33:10 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Kerry could throw a curveball… (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JesseCW, AllisonInSeattle, aufklaerer

                        …and recognize Palestine as an independent nation (though it should be two nations). That would make the settlers invaders. We may not recognize the borders they want, but if we recognize anything then that is a disaster for Likud.

                        Union-printed, USA-made, signs, stickers, swag for everyone: DemSign.com.

                        by DemSign on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 10:48:31 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Even making it known that we won't veto (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AllisonInSeattle, aufklaerer, AoT

                          real UN recognition would be massive.

                          Staggering.

                          "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                          by JesseCW on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 01:00:48 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  Not gonna happen. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          AoT
                          Kerry could throw a curveball…
                          …and recognize Palestine as an independent nation
                          We just lost our UNESCO vote.  And why?  Because we won't pay our UNESCO dues.  And why won't we pay our UNESCO dues?  Because of the quasi-state recognition afforded Palestine by UNESCO.

                          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                          by corvo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 06:39:35 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                •  How true; in 30 years (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  JesseCW

                  people will look back on Sharon and Netanyahu as dangerous accommodationists.

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 05:06:39 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Are those the people who immigrated or (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JesseCW

            whose families moved from the US? Who are the Israeli left?

          •  Sounds remarkably like what used to be (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nolagrl, corvo

            called not "the US," with that implicit Imperial footnote, but "America." The place where once not so long ago the people who now call themselves "Reds," and who not so long before that violently held that we were "Better DEAD than RED," those same people or some significant fraction of them wanted to shitcan not only most of the provisions of the Constitution, but even that hand-to-heart-at-the-football-game, Roseanne Barr rendered National Anthem in favor of that much richer and more aspirational tune, "America the Beautiful."

            You know, the one that has these stanzas in it:

            O beautiful for spacious skies,
            For amber waves of grain,
            For purple mountain majesties
            Above the fruited plain!
            America! America!
            God shed his grace on thee
            And crown thy good with brotherhood
            From sea to shining sea!

            O beautiful for pilgrim feet
            Whose stern impassioned stress
            A thoroughfare of freedom beat
            Across the wilderness!
            America! America!
            God mend thine every flaw,
            Confirm thy soul in self-control,
            Thy liberty in law!

            O beautiful for heroes proved
            In liberating strife.
            Who more than self their country loved
            And mercy more than life!
            America! America!
            May God thy gold refine
            Till all success be nobleness
            And every gain divine!

            O beautiful for patriot dream
            That sees beyond the years
            Thine alabaster cities gleam
            Undimmed by human tears!
            America! America!
            God shed his grace on thee
            And crown thy good with brotherhood
            From sea to shining sea!

            ...

            O beautiful for glory-tale
            Of liberating strife
            When once and twice,
            for man's avail
            Men lavished precious life!
            America! America!
            God shed his grace on thee
            Till selfish gain no longer stain
            The banner of the free!

            And because political correctness had not been invented, and, well, who knows why, this too:
            O beautiful for patriot dream
            That sees beyond the years
            Thine alabaster cities gleam
            Undimmed by human tears!
            America! America!
            God shed his grace on thee
            Till nobler men keep once again
            Thy whiter jubilee!
            In the meantime, Avigdor Lieberman, that Blessed Are the Peacemakers fella, is now Israeli foreign minister. There, as here too, the reactionaries and tribalists, by being focused and organized and staying on task and on message for decades, have loaded up the politics to suit their corporatist chums. Complete with a spurious, manufactured, Overton-window "consensus." Meantime, the Forever War grows in scope and cost as it marches on, glory glory Halleluiah!

            Huh...

            "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

            by jm214 on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:12:12 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Perfectly said Tackle... but he doesn't really (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nolagrl, AllisonInSeattle

          appear to be of sound mind to me.  Can't the people see it or are they just scared?  I'm scared too, but if Obama was running again I would certainly not vote for him and wish I hadn't voted for him 2 times.

          The Saudis are not the only religious extremists Tackle.  It's also the right wing style extremist rabbi's and Christians around the world who send money to Israel.  LOL???  Why would they send money to Israel? Israel gets billions of taxpayer dollars every year from the US. The Christians  should be sending money to the people of Palestine who are currently being kicked out of their homes so Bibi can have his Jewish state.

          Sigh.  I think the rest of the world should have peace, and he's in the way.

      •  The Israeli left never recovered after... (18+ / 0-)

        ...Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated.

        Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

        by Shockwave on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 02:54:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Well said, JayBat (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Koopatroopa, Hey338Too, ORswede

      There's nothing more galling than listening to my fellow Americans lecture Israel on how to conduct itself morally.

      We're the country that let Bush/Cheney take over, start a bullshit war that killed hundreds of thousands,  and institutionalize the torture of innocent Iraqis for nearly a decade.  

      We are hardly in a position to lecture Israel on anything.

      •  That only applies to people who voted (32+ / 0-)

        for those fuckers and/or supported the war and torture. Don't lump in all Americans with them, just as we shouldn't lump all Israelis in with Bibi.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:13:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Our support for Israel (28+ / 0-)

        with billions of dollars should go into the moral failings of the US. As long as we are funding them we should have an opinion on them. It's our weapons killing over there too.

        And trust me when I say I was lecturing Americans well before I was talking about Israel.

        •  Saudi Arabia (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nolagrl, AoT, Shappy

          Saudi Arabia doesn't let women drive, we give them billions in oil and tax breaks.  

          Pakistan's violence towards India in the Kashmir region is legendary.   We give them a billion or so a year.

          Should we get into Egypt?

          Your selective outrage is noteworthy.  

          For a country with as many recent outrages as ours, we should fix our own home long before we get into lecturing Israel on moral integrity.

          Shit, we can't even get minor gun control or basic gay/lesbian workplace protections passed in our own congress.

          •  No It's Not (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            caul

            Money should always have strings.  

            Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

            by tikkun on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:04:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  If you think my outrage is limited (4+ / 0-)

            to Israel then you haven't paid attention to what we two have talked about.

            For a country with as many recent outrages as ours, we should fix our own home long before we get into lecturing Israel on moral integrity.
            So should we start with the NSA?
          •  blah blah blah (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            caul, hyperstation, Flyswatterbanjo

            I am so sick of hearing these false equivalency arguments.  

            Israel is a tiny country with a population of just under 8 million people.  And yet it maintains a stateless refugee population of almost 5 million people.  This is a massive immediate refugee crisis.  There is nothing on earth that compares to this.  No nation on earth maintains a population of stateless people this large.  

            The entire world is demanding that the Palestinian people be allowed to be citizens of a nation and enjoy the protections of civil law.  And yet, Israeli policies have obstructed any disposition decade after decade.  

            And how does this tiny country maintain this huge population of stateless people?  Only with the financial and diplomatic support of the US, against our own policies.  As an American, I am allow to have selective outrage.  Americans are directly responsible for the largest refugee crisis in the world.  

            •  What compares to the Second Intifada? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Koopatroopa

              When Arafat responded to Rabin's peace overtures and offer of self-government by sending in hundreds of suicide bombers who blew up pizza shops and school buses with nails dipped in rat poison?

              You act like Israel suddenly woke up one day and had to occupy Palestine.  Just to be dicks, I guess.

              You completely ignore how Israel bent over backwards in the 1990s to give Arafat the land and make a peace deal.

              What did they get in response?

              Dead Israeli school children.

              An entire nation rocked by wave after wave of terrorism.

              If the United States had to endure what Israel went through 2000-2002, there wouldn't be any Palestinians left.

              So get off your high horse.  No country would endure what Israel has endured (attacked in 1948, 1967, 1973, and waves of terrorist attacks ever since) and not block off Palesitne from further damage.

              By the way, Egypt is free to welcome in the Palestinian refugees any time it would like.  Nothing is stopping them.

              •  again this is a false equivalency (0+ / 0-)

                It is easy to say we have to maintain the status quo, as Israel does, when you are not refugees.  

                The Palestinians were promised a formal disposition, all Palestinian violence stopped until the peace process was derailed by Israeli racist ultra-nationalists, first with the Cave of the Patriarchs Massacre and then by the assassination of Rabin.  

                Then, after Likud took over power, the Palestinians watched for years while all the promises made were broken, and a formal policy of massive settlement expansion in the West Bank took place.  

                Do you really think the Palestinian people are going to watch a huge increase in ethnic cleansing and colonization and continue to work for peace as if the Israelis were acting in good faith.  

                Then, it was the Israelis who left the negotiation table, not the Palestinians.  

                By the way, Egypt is free to welcome in the Palestinian refugees any time it would like.  Nothing is stopping them.
                Sure, let Israel complete the ethnic cleansing of Palestine.  That's really what you want, isn't it?  I can't wait until the US cuts off Israeli aid.  I am so sick of being played for fools by the manipulative government of Israel.
                •  justifying terrorism (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Koopatroopa

                  Oh, so the peace process was "derailed" as you say, in 2000, so that justifies the Second Intifada?  Ridiculous.

                  There are numerous ways oppressed people (and the Palestinians are most certainly oppressed) can resist an occupying government.

                  I suggest you read up on Gandhi. Or Nelson Mandela. Or Martin Luther King.

                  There are other ways to respond to injustice that don't involve hundreds of suicide bombers on the streets of Tel Aviv.  

                  I'm certainly not excusing Israel for numerous injustices, and I hate Netanyahu, but the Palestinians are fully complicit in their fate.  

                  They declared war via suicide bomber on Israel in 2000 and unleashed a campaign that lasted two years and forced Israel to blockade all ports and shut down movement.  

                  What would the US have done if faced with a wave of suicide bombers on the streets of New York, Chicago and Los Angeles?

                  Gimmie a break.  You hold Israel to a standard no other nation is held to.  

                  •  if the US kept 40% of its people as stateless (0+ / 0-)

                    refugees, it would be having the exact same problems.  Do not compare the US to Israel, it's just insulting.  US law prohibits discrimination, Israeli law requires discrimination.

                    I did not say the peace process was derailed in 2000.  The peace process was derailed with the assassination of Rabin, and right wing fanatics took over government, and instituted a massive colonization undertaking in the west Bank.  Population of illegal Israeli settlers tripled over the decade.

                    Once the Palestinians saw Israel breaking all promises, and simply stealing their land, they rightly understood that Israel was not acting in good faith.  

                    There is one simple cause of all the problems in Israel and occupied lands.  Israel will not give up the land, and will not recognize the rights of the people who live on the land.  And you sit back and snidely defend ethnic cleansing.  

                     

                    You hold Israel to a standard no other nation is held to.
                    You keep saying stupid things like this.  No nation on earth maintains a population of stateless refugees deprived of basic civil law like Israel does.   There is no way to compare what Israel does to any other county because the crimes of Israel in maintaining this stateless population has no comparison on earth.  
                    •  this (0+ / 0-)
                      Once the Palestinians saw Israel breaking all promises, and simply stealing their land, they rightly understood that Israel was not acting in good faith.  
                      if you think this justifies suicide bombers killing innocent women and children, you are truly lost.  
                      •  it wasnt Palestinians who broke the peace (0+ / 0-)
                        •  Well nevermind then (0+ / 0-)

                          Clearly the Second Intifada was fully justified.

                          Gandhi, Mandela, and King?  They all had different ideas about how to respond to injustice.  But I'm sure when each of them suffered unfairly, they should've just strapped some nail bombs to young men and sent them into suburban neighborhoods.  

                          •  Israel kills or marginalizes perceived threats (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            AoT

                            Including any Palestinians who can unite their people through peaceful means.

                            This is carefully crafted propaganda, that Palestinians deserve to live as stateless refugees under military occupation.  

                            What exactly is your point here?  Would British colonialism in India be justifiable if Gandhi advocated violent confrontation?

                            You think South Africa released Mandela because he was so noble?  The ANC, which Mandela helped run, never ruled out violent confrontation.  Mandela was released because the United States told South Africa to release him.  For decades we tolerated South African apartheidism because the perceived threats of communism in Africa overrode disgust with apartheidism, but at the end of the cold war, our government told South Africa that they end apartheidism or our government will actively oppose them.

                            And King?  Some civil rights advocates used peaceful means like King, and some used militant means.  But neither tactic could justify Jim Crow, as you imply.

                            As for Palestinians, what about Hanan Ashrawi?  She is a US educated, liberal Christian woman who advocates peaceful means.  Does Israel elevate and encourage her?  No, Israel refuses to recognize her as either a Palestinian citizen or citizen of Israel, and keeps her under virtual house arrest.  I guarantee that if Israel saw her as a greater threat, she would not be alive.

                            So you really think Israel would stop settlement construction or ethnic cleansing if Palestinians just stopped complaining or protesting?

                            The US has to cut off Israel, at least be neutral, and then allow the universal condemnation of the rest of the world force change.  I can see in your own stubborn defense and excuse making for Israel, that no change will ever come without this pressure.

      •  I don't believe in lecturing anyone (9+ / 0-)

        but I do believe in using my money wisely and paying Israel's military bill is NOT a wise use of our money.

        Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

        by tikkun on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:02:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Say what? Most Americans who are critical of (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        JayBat, betterdemsonly, AoT

        Israel despise Bush, Cheney, the Iraq war and so forth. I feel completely comfortable lecturing Israel AND my government.

        The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

        by Wolf10 on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 03:50:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Netanyahu is now threatening a war that could (10+ / 0-)

      become a world war.  That's worse than anything Reagan or W. did.

      The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

      by lysias on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 02:57:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  People who threaten X rarely do X (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        happymisanthropy, JayBat

        Bibi's a bullshit artist more than anything. Not that he's not capable of some really nasty shit, but if the US doesn't want him to do X, he will not do X.

        "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

        by kovie on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 03:14:36 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't know that that is true (8+ / 0-)

          Bush certainly followed through on his threats. And since Israel has nukes I'd imagine that bibi feels pretty invulnerable.

          •  The nuke factor is irrelevant (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Koopatroopa, happymisanthropy, JayBat

            because Israel would never used them in a first strike scenario, or in response to being squeezed by the US. Bibi may be an asshole but he's not crazy.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 04:18:13 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The nukes matter because they are a defense (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ichibon, RJDixon74135, JesseCW

              against invasion. They aren't going to just nuke Iran or Syria, but they can do whatever they want and they won't face any real military response. Certainly not a response that would end in real damage to Israel on a broad scale.

            •  The nuke factor IS relevant IMHO (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Odysseus, WattleBreakfast, tikkun, caul

              They want a world war so they can reveal to the world that they actually do have them. They just need someone else to start it. Once that happens then the ends justify the deception and they can go play with the Big Boys at NATO.

              It has always ALWAYS bothered me that they seemed to always be beating the drum for war and pleading with us to "punish" Iran or whomever. Especially when they are perfectly capable of instigating and fighting their own wars.

              Once you factor in that they have nukes they can't justify using and that they can't justify even HAVING (considering how loud they are about Iran), it all makes sense. They can't have peace because then they will have to keep hiding their nukes and pretending they don't exist.

              The only way to get out of our shadow is to use nukes but the only way to use nukes without the entire world coming down on them is to have us start it for them.

              Admittedly I could be wrong and hopefully I am. But many of us are out of ideas and rationalizations for that government's behavior.

              •  This makes no sense (0+ / 0-)

                Everyone knows they have nukes. There's no need to prove it and even if there was, there are, um, better ways to do it. And I'm sure that in case there's any doubt they've made sure that their top enemies know it, as a deterrent. The problem with Israel having nukes isn't that it's likely to ever use it as a first strike, but that it was likely to prompt other countries to acquire them too. Countries that maybe wouldn't be so good at not using them.

                "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

                by kovie on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 05:34:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  It's a huge leap from (0+ / 0-)

                  "Everyone knows they have nukes" to "Israel is a nuclear power."

                  Why don't they just admit to having them? THAT would be a much more effective deterrent than a rumor. The rumor is just encouraging a buildup toward MAD in their neighborhood.

                  •  Well, one reason they don't admit it is that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    betterdemsonly

                    it is against US law for the United States to give military aid to an undeclared nuclear power. See Symington Amendment. Oopsie.

                    If reality clashes with your belief, then the problem clearly is reality.--God

                    by Flyswatterbanjo on Wed Nov 13, 2013 at 07:23:48 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  It's not a rumor, it's a fact (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    It's been all but officially acknowledged by Israel. To doubt it in even the slightest is sheer lunacy. They have subs with ICBM nukes now.

                    "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

                    by kovie on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 09:25:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Wurmser (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JesseCW, whizdom

                How soon we forget.

                Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                by tikkun on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:11:55 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  This is why we need to teach World History (0+ / 0-)

                not just American history.  That was the old USSR sin.

                Joy shared is doubled. Pain shared is halved. Spider Robinson

                by nolagrl on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:56:58 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Then We Should Let Him Know (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JesseCW, AllisonInSeattle

          that there will be no more ginning up trouble in the region unless he wants his allowance cut.

          Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

          by tikkun on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:05:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Obama has Bibi by the beebees. (0+ / 0-)

          Joy shared is doubled. Pain shared is halved. Spider Robinson

          by nolagrl on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 07:50:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not necessarily (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Lepanto

            Have Israel or the US attacked Iran? No. And the US just held face to face talks with Iran for the first time since the Shah fell. They failed, but the fact that the were held was a major win for reason and defeat for Bibi.

            Don't assume that yesterday's narratives are today's reality.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 08:22:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I can. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TomP

      RR and GWB sucked too.

    •  yeah? but We didn't elect/Netanyahu. (0+ / 0-)

      it tebble, it hobble; honey lu been shot. - harvey kurtzman

      by renzo capetti on Tue Nov 12, 2013 at 10:53:00 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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