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View Diary: Abbreviated Pundit Round-up: WH taking fire on Obamacare (124 comments)

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  •  OK (1+ / 0-)
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    pelagicray

    I agree that people who advocated sitting out this election because they didn't like McAuliffe enough were full of it -- and, in the threads I saw, there was no shortage of people to say so.

    Unfortunately, rebutting "evil of two lessers" folks on Daily Kos has very little impact on voter turnout. So, I still don't think political naifs on Daily Kos have much to do with the problem. I wish they did, in a way.

    "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

    by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 08:20:29 AM PST

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    •  I more or less agree the problem is not so much (1+ / 0-)
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      HudsonValleyMark

      here as in the general electorate. Still, as far as I am concerned, anyone here advocating any of that sit out attitude for general elections deserves the terminal, dinosaur extinction celestial object super doughnut. I've lived with the miserable results of people that claim to be "good" doing nothing on election day to have any merciful feelings.

      A major problem I think we face is that we have lost the forums where our side once had power and the other side has created at least one major forum—the right wing megachurch. Meanwhile we largely lost those union halls and to some extent the old line "social clubs" that once were a place to address large numbers and incubate organization.

      Our culture has disassociated to an amazing degree. I truly wonder at what is going on as I hit either a bar or a coffee house where people are all on their devices and sometimes texting people five or fewer feet away. Yeah, I understand my kids and grandkids texting in the same house sometimes. It is like the old note on the kitchen chalkboard. But in a bar? Everyone silent with fingers flying?

      One of our issues, and one I think our political committees and politicians only vaguely understand and sometimes make fools of themselves trying to be involved, is how to turn those social media habits into organization and GOTV. By the way, I've brought that up and even suggested some examples in the commercial sector and been looked at as if I were an alien.

      Once had one go on and on about the value of personal calls and even robo calls—to an audience increasingly using their devices to screen calls! Hell, if I fell and crawled to a phone to call my kids I'd get "You've reached . . ." voicemail! On my cell? If I don't recognize the caller it is delete on arrival and I have ringtones for each family member.

      The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

      by pelagicray on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 03:16:43 PM PST

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      •  yes, it's a sea change (1+ / 0-)
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        pelagicray

        I think you're right that it isn't just a matter of people being individually lazy, but of loss of social connectedness -- with a relative advantage thereby accruing to politicized churches -- and it isn't clear yet how "social media" can close that gap.

        I don't have much patience myself for people who come to a political site preaching apathy, especially when it comes to the vote.

        "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

        by HudsonValleyMark on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 05:16:52 PM PST

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        •  Also a loss of civics as a particular subject. (1+ / 0-)
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          HudsonValleyMark

          Sure, there were lots of people that did not vote back in "olden times" of my youth, but I definitely remember a more civic obligation connection being common. I civics as a full year subject in grade, 7th and high schools. In high both civics and government were specific, required subjects for graduation. The senior required course was intense, including survey of Supreme Court cases and, because it was in one of the states allowing 18 year olds to vote we went as a class to register. Now, that was in the segregated deep south so I'm sure the "colored" high school did nothing of the sort! Those were the days when WW II vets came home, many determined to change the old ways, and civic duty was emphasized. Even the students that failed  required civics and did not graduate on time (here were no "social promotions" at all, you flunk, you repeat.) had a dose of why voting was important and how it really worked along with an environment where adults took it very seriously. People now I find have little feel for what I call "strategic voting" and, as in much else, want instant gratification.

          As for how to connect now I find some places such as my own very well off and educated and rather technically sophisticated county's Democratic Committee getting along with some social media initiatives. Years ago it was dominated by people who had the time, retirees, and was having difficulty understanding the change. I find that still existing as I browse some other area's committees. I really wish the 50 state initiative had continued with a real technology injection down to every county committee.

          Compare my county with Louisa Democratic Committee (random pick) where The Cooch got 5,381 to McAuliffe's 3,546 votes. So, why don't we have a state or national center to assist such committees in web page creation and maintenance? Why not have a state or national "hosting" service where the technical aspects are made as easy as many commercial equivalents where the innards are professional and the committees are content providers?

          The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

          by pelagicray on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 06:12:59 AM PST

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          •  a few thoughts (0+ / 0-)

            I don't know how to disentangle the effect of civics education from the influence of "the civic generation." I'll have to give that more thought, but not right now -- I'm slammed. Anyway, it's a second-order question.

            A while back, some political scientists suggested that what we really need in high schools is "barbarics" -- by which (as I recall) they basically meant civics without illusions. But given that a major rationale for public education is to educate people to be the public, civic engagement should be integrated across the curriculum.

            Tech backbone: totally doable. Why not, indeed?

            "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

            by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 09:22:34 AM PST

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            •  In my case I remember the "illusions" mainly lying (1+ / 0-)
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              HudsonValleyMark

              in American history with both civics and government being pretty nuts and bolts. The rosy glow was usually in the history courses where pimples to oozing ulcers were glossed over. As one example I remember HS civics teacher (back then not many outlets for really talented women, so we got teachers out or that pool colleges today might envy) and perhaps a week in comparative democratic systems. The class concluded, without steering, there were some damn good outcomes of parliamentary systems and there was an end segment discussion of some blend that might be a considerable improvement on what we have. In my opinion, formed from those days, civics should be much like auto mechanics, how the thing works and thus why you should not neglect oil changes and maintenance.

              Yeah, why not a tech backbone? I expect it would be cheaper, more effective, let committees focus on content and results and also foster inter committee data/idea sharing. I see you've done some tech leaning diaries. Want to run with the idea?

              The only foes that threaten America are the enemies at home, and those are ignorance, superstition, and incompetence. [Elbert Hubbard]

              by pelagicray on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 11:58:05 AM PST

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              •  to the last: honestly, no (1+ / 0-)
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                pelagicray

                I'm an election guy, not a proper tech, and I rarely even get around to writing the diaries I think I ought to write. Some of the folks who have recently written on the healthcare.gov rollout seem better suited.

                And, yes, there's no reason why civics has to be rainbows and unicorns -- or why it should be boring.

                "I am not sure how we got here, but then, I am not really sure where we are." -Susan from 29

                by HudsonValleyMark on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 02:36:06 PM PST

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