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View Diary: Koch, ALEC and giant utility company about to derail Arizona's private solar industry (184 comments)

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  •  oldpotsmuggler - that's a myth, but widely (0+ / 0-)

    believed. The data just doesn't support it. The sun sets faster, and the solar panels stop producing at a high level, before the residual heat dissipates.

    "let's talk about that"

    by VClib on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 02:05:56 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Interesting that we were taught your "myth" in the (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      codairem, randallt, patbahn

      18 month Energy Managment curriculum that I just completed.

      So you sincerely believe that solar energy has no affect whatsoever on utility spot market purchases? Because I can tell you that I've never met anyone else who believes it, even the utility company reps who spoke to various of my classes.

      There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

      by oldpotsmuggler on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 04:44:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  A friend of mine who just left as a California (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Public Utilities Commissioner showed me the charts and graphs that the CA PUC has developed. The peak need for energy continues well beyond the time when the residential rooftop panels begin to reduce their energy production. So while rooftop solar clearly reduces the demand on the grid from noon to 4pm, as the sun starts to set the peak demand lags by several hours.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 04:54:22 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Meaning, of course, that you agree with what I (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          randallt, VeloDramatic

          just said, with a minor reservation. Do you know what happens starting around 4:00pm? Many industrial and commercial customers start reducing their electricity usage as they begin to wind down their work day. So no matter how you try to spin it, solar is cutting into the need to use other peaking sources. And the utilities themselves own solar for just this reason. Their issue is that they're making windfall profits, and they don't want to give any of it up to homeowners.


          There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

          by oldpotsmuggler on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 07:03:12 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Utilities are using solar because they have to (0+ / 0-)

            The only reason that utilities are using solar is because it is mandated and for no other reason. Because solar isn't 24/7/365 and can't be easily turned up or down in CA every solar plant has a backup gas fired sister power plant. From the perspective of the utilities the solar power plants are a waste of money, but they are included in the rate base, and legislatively required, so they build them.

            At least to date in CA rooftop solar has not had a measurable impact on the generation requirements for peak power.

            "let's talk about that"

            by VClib on Thu Nov 14, 2013 at 09:35:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  if it's in the rate base, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              they don't give a S&*t.

              They get unhappy when it's not in the rate base.

              Trust me, when ISDN was rolling out,
              the phone company wanted to sell it as a metered service.

              So we testified as it' was a flat rate cost, the cost of all
              ISDN switches should be pulled from the rate base.

              the Verizon people nearly had strokes.

            •  This turns out not to be the case (0+ / 0-)

              for reasons already stated above. If you wish to repeat your talking point without responding to facts in evidence, I can only tell you that you argue like a Republican.

              Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

              by Mokurai on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 12:37:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  Here's a good chart from Germany (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ainwa, oldpotsmuggler

          The Yellow Stuff is all solar,  but you can see from 5-11 PM
          the utilities surging it's less of a surge then that 2 PM
          Bake in during july,  but it's still an every day
          they need to come up with power for 6 hours.

          It's why Utility managers are going ape.

          Things are changing and they don't know how to cope.

          The fear is that in another year or two, in germany
          that solar thing could become 100%  but then they need to
          have ways to level that load, and they still need to produce power from 5-11 PM.

          •  Thom Hartmann has talked about German Solar (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            oldpotsmuggler, patbahn

            power.  Germany is a country that doesn't have lots of sunshine.  Their conversion to solar has been very successful and has eliminated the need for several nuclear power plants.  The process was to allow homeowners to mortgage the cost of the solar installation at low interest rate; power companies paid homeowners a rate for the power they produce which helped homeowners pay the mortgage costs.  I believe the German government set this program in motion.  

            We are so poorly served by our media most of the time.

            In May of 1949, Albert Einstein wrote, "an oligarchy of private capital, the enormous power of which cannot be effectively checked even by a democratically organized political society.... Moreover, under existing conditions, private capitalists inevitably control, directly or indirectly, the main sources of information (press, radio, education). It is thus extremely difficult, and indeed in most cases quite impossible, for the individual citizen to come to objective conclusions and to make intelligent use of his political rights."

            quite a prediction.......

            •  feed in tariff (0+ / 0-)

              they were paying big money for the feed in,
              every year it got smaller.

            •  You need to give a link for your Einstein quote (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              There are way too many fake Einstein quotes in circulation, like the supposed definition of insanity that Narconon made up in 1981. Or, as you will sometimes see in a sig here on dKos:

              The problem with internet quotes is that you can't always depend on their accuracy.

              Abraham Lincoln, 1864

              See also Uncyclopedia, where by convention every quotation is attributed to Oscar Wilde. In Yiddish, even.

              Never mind, I'll do your homework for you. Here it is, in Einstein's article Why Socialism? in the Monthly Review. But this, I think, is even more to the point.

              The individual has become more conscious than ever of his dependence upon society. But he does not experience this dependence as a positive asset, as an organic tie, as a protective force, but rather as a threat to his natural rights, or even to his economic existence.
              It was true of both sides of slavery in the old South, and of predatory Capitalism in general, and it completely explains Republicans, especially the Religious Right and the Tea Parties.

              The task of Socialism, according to Einstein and others, is to find a path to a society in which most people find their relationship to the state, to economic power, and to everybody else is neither making and carrying out threats nor being threatened, but is the nurturing foundation of all of our lives. Not that I think we can make everybody like having everybody else help them, with the corollary of having to help others. But a clear majority would do to allow us to ask the next questions that would follow, questions that we can see at best dimly today.

              Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

              by Mokurai on Fri Nov 15, 2013 at 02:11:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  if you are talking A/C Loads (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      can't people if they have excess PV
      say at Solar Noon, program the House
      A/C to chill the house to say 50 F
      so when they come home around 5 PM,
      the system stops and the house is slowly
      warming up?

      Obviously 50 is a bit of a extreme argument,

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