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View Diary: NYT Exposes The Organized Right Wing Propaganda Machine! (111 comments)

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  •  It's not propaganda if it's true (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    saluda, VClib, lotlizard

    Democrats actually got by for quite awhile being totally incapable of either marketing or even explaining the law.  It's only when people do get the policy cancellations, the premium increases, see the narrow networks, find out the subsidy does not apply to them that the Republicans propaganda machine can turn out actual news and people listen.

    If you have a program that requires millions of people to proactively buy in and has penalties if they do not it's got to sell with the middle of the middle class.

    This is why real liberals know that you have to bribe the middle class to get them to accept some taxation to the help poor.  The old saying is "Democrats will steal it from you but THEY will give you some of it back".  

    If you can't deliver tangible benefits to people that they can see, at least have the integrity to simply tell them you are going to raise their taxes to help out those who cannot afford healthcare.  Don't just trick them because you think they are too stupid to notice when the Affordable Care Act raises their premiums leaving them with less discretionary income.

    •  The reason there is not enough money is (10+ / 0-)

      because Capitol Hill rations it and Wall Street hoards it.
      Even though there is more and more money in play, the trickle at which it moves has been reduced to a drip. Credit that to the sequester and the shut-down, which sought a full stop.
      A dripping faucet is bad. On the other hand, when there's only a trickle going over the dam, the people downstream will die of drought and thirst and the people upstream will be attacked by the swarming mosquitos stagnant water spawns.

      Obamacare at your fingertips: 1-800-318-2596; TTY: 1-855-889-4325

      by hannah on Thu Nov 21, 2013 at 09:53:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  What is this I'm hearing about "marketing"? (10+ / 0-)

      A law isn't a breakfast cereal. After 205 separate actions in both houses of Congress during six months of intense debate, and a 193 page SCOTUS decision, what needs to be sold?  

      IT'S THE LAW.

      For it to function properly there are multiple elements that all have their own responsibilities:

      federal government, as we know,
      state governments,
      state insurance commissioners,
      insurance companies,
      consumers.

      Unfortunately, at every level I listed above,  there's interference from interested parties who will benefit from bad outcomes. They have billions of dollars in resources and the megaphone of the media at their disposal to deliver an avalanche of lies to the public.

      This is how propaganda works. Sewage finds a home in the minds of a receptive audience that helps to distribute it further throughout the population.

      Don't come here spouting about tangible benefits until you've signed up 100 people who were formerly denied Medicaid and now have access to it.

      Don't bring sob stories about people who lost cheap premiums that were only possible because sick people were denied equal access.

      Inform yourself before you preach.

      There is no existence without doubt.

      by Mark Lippman on Thu Nov 21, 2013 at 10:09:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How many times can I say MIDDLE CLASS (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib, lotlizard

        So many of you are missing the point and so you will be astounded when the Republican "propaganda" is successful.  

        This law depends on the buy in of tens of millions of people.  To reach them, you need to market in many forms of media with diverse messages.  Democrats didn't do that.  

        I do get that this law helps the poor and the more times everyone says MEDICAID the more the MIDDLE CLASS is going to totally get the point, Oh, the Affordable Care Act helps the poor and not me.  Now I get it!

        Your problem is that this law is unsustainable if it is not supported by the MIDDLE CLASS and you will not get their support by telling them that you don't give a damn that they lost their cheap premiums because you achieved your goal of tricking them into paying more to cover the poor.  

        If you'd simply taxed them, they'd have seen it coming.  Instead, centrists figure they are too stupid to figure it out.  

        Like the narrow networks - I ran into that the first day I looked at the ACA policies.  You couldn't see that until the policies were available for review.  Drove me right into a high deductible plan which is going to cost me more than COBRA if I get sick and have to use it but being MIDDLE CLASS and all I'm not willing to put up with the narrow network.  Just not doing it for me.  

        A problem here folks is that Democrats can't figure out their target market?  Who is it?  It's all apples and oranges.  Medicaid, Medicaid, Medicaid.  I hear you!! But the last thing the middle class wants is to be put on Medicaid.  Young people think they're getting screwed to pay for me and I'm surprised that old me is going to have pay as much as I did for COBRA.  

        I mean for every person you need signed up for this law you probably need another 10 supporting it and to get that sustainable support you better figure out how to market it and if you can't figure out how to market it, that's a good sign that you have some fatal defects in your product.

        •  It's not that Democrats won't or can't do it (5+ / 0-)

          it's that they can't get the fucking airtime in enough volume. Can you say "corporate ownership of airwaves"?  Can you say "Lying Villagers"? Can you say "Sins of Omission"?

          Get a grip.

           

          This all started with "what the Republicans did to language".

          by lunachickie on Thu Nov 21, 2013 at 10:33:51 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Green is chock full of misinfo and anti-D/liberal (5+ / 0-)

            buzzwords.  I mean, really, 'D will steal' from the middle-class is a pro-D or liberal message?  Srsly?  

            Here's a hint: if you want to people to take you seriously,l try not to sound like a Thug sock puppet.

            BTW Green, your personal experience is anecdotal evidence, of little significance to anything but your own experience (albeit that is important to you).  The data simply does not bear you out.  The reality is among other things: most middle-class voters will not be affected b/c they have employer-paid insurance, most of those who will be affected lost their insurance so its either ACA or nothing - and judging by your COBRA comment you're one of them.  So ask yourself this: would you rather die from lack of health care or give up the illusion that you had infinite choice of providers without ACA (you didn't, not simply bc you didn't have any if you lack insurance, but bc insurance companies already restricted you to their networks if you did)?

            Then ask yourself this: you going to take Medicare?  You going to refuse it when you find out how many docs and hospitals don't take Medicare patients?  Or are you going to thank Democrats and liberals for the extra 10 to 20 or more years of life Medicare will give you (look up how it used to be for all but the rich if you don't believe that) to fight the real culprits here: the rich and corporations, who for 50 years have been rigging the system to steal every dime from you they can and laughing all the way when you do anything but vote for  Democrats (and the more liberal one at that, when you can)?

            •  Just more eat your peas (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              lotlizard

              I mean listen to you - you have to tell me most middle class won't be impacted by the bill because they get to keep their employer plans.  That's a sales pitch for this law??  Meanwhile, the centrists want to make sure the middle class doesn't get any of those "Cadillac" union plans anyway.  

              You tell me don't complain about the crappy choices because I would have had crappy choices anyway?  That's a sales pitch for this law?  

              What we have is the centrist Austerity Health Care Act brought to you on the cheap, without taxing the rich, and paid for by the middle class with higher premiums and smaller provider networks.  

              Yes it will help the poor and the uninsurable (though apparently some already in high risk pools aren't so thrilled about how they'll being impacted) and you better hope they vote because my point remains, this law has to be accepted by the middle class or it will not be sustainable which will thrill the centrists because they never wanted universal healthcare anyway.

              •  But the rich are being taxed (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mark Lippman, Larsstephens

                The subsidies are largely paid for out of the taxes levied by the ACA on incomes over $250k/year.  Those beneficiaries of the Bush tax cuts gave a bit of them back to the ACA, which is probably the main reason that so much money is going into total repeal efforts!  The public at large isn't in favor of giving back money to the filthy rich, so they couch their tax-cut desire by trying to axe the whole thing.

                Of the middle class, most are in group plans, which mostly don't change much.  Those who are in the individual market will benefit, except for a minority of "young invulnerables" who made do with shit plans and never tried to make serious claims.  You only got one bite at the apple of individual policies in most states; after that, you had a pre-existing condition, or were underwritten out of such "patient-centered" coverage.  ACA means you can stay insured no matter how hard you exercise the plan you get.

          •  That's not true in my state (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            lotlizard

            The media is playing it as fair as they can.  When someone markets that Minnesota has the lowest premiums in the nation, a reporter reports it.  Then folks like me go and look at policies and say, hmmm, that deductible sure makes the low premium less impressive.  Pretty soon that same reporter is reporting Minnesota policies have among the highest deductibles in the nation.

            People do figure it out.  That's why the law is less popular now that it is rolling out.  If Democrats didn't want that to happen they shouldn't have stuck their heads in the centrist sand box and pretended they didn't know that "bending the cost curve" was going to mean shifting more of the costs onto the middle class.  

            I admit CBS etc. seem to lead every story with hyperbolic exaggeration about the flaws but the propaganda only really started to work when people really started looking at how the law was going to impact them and they aren't seeing enough benefits up front.  

            •  How often does the deductible actually come into (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larsstephens

              play? My family's policy has always had one, but everything we've needed has been covered with just a co-pay, including surgery to fix a broken ankle. We've never met or had to meet the deductible to get routine tests, doctors' visits or anything else. Your point about the networks is more valid, but insurance companies, as least in PA, have always been able to restrict which hospitals you go to or which lab you can use.

              •  On my policy there are no co-pays (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                lotlizard

                The only items exempt from the deductible are the mandated preventive care items in the ACA so the broken ankle or any infection including any prescription would have to be paid entirely through the deductible first.  

                Of course, there were networks before but in my case the change was to a much more restrictive provider network including one very good hospital but excluding the university, our level 1 trauma center, and the Mayo system not to mention the two hospitals closest to where I live and by excluding all of those they exclude a lot of choices I'd want to have if I had a complex injury or illness.  The out of pocket maximum on out of network was UNLIMITED.  That was way too scary for me.  The  only way around that on BCBS was to go with a high deductible which is doable but not really affordable.  

              •  The deductible comes into play every year (0+ / 0-)

                Except for certain routine preventative care that the ACA makes free, deductibles impact how much of a bill you have to pay for out of pocket before the insurance plan kicks in a satoshi.  If you have a $2000/4000 family deductible, each family member has to have $2000 of bills they owe before coverage kicks in, unless the family as a whole has already paid $4000.  This resets annually.
                It is true that plans can restrict which hospitals and doctors are covered.  That's not new to ACA plans.  It's one of the price differentiators.  Here in metro Boston, the limited network plans are and have been very limited.  On the order of 10% of doctors are allowed, none necessarily in your own city.

        •  You're not speaking for the middle class. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JohnB47, pollwatcher, Larsstephens

          You're speaking for a tiny number of people and you're using the logic fallacy to suggest that their anecdotes are applicable to the entire middle class.

          That should be enough without further elaboration.

          But the anecdotes themselves are even faulty. They're based on missing information which gives them the stink of propaganda sewage.

          There is no existence without doubt.

          by Mark Lippman on Thu Nov 21, 2013 at 11:26:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  People are misunderstanding your comment. (0+ / 0-)

          You're not speaking against the ACA, you're saying it wasn't honestly explained to the middle class. Digby has had some good posts about this but they were a few weeks ago and hard to find now. I was able to find this one:

          http://digbysblog.blogspot.de/...

          Incidentally, Web search sites like Google and Bing are getting worse and worse (more and more intrusive) about, among other things, mixing sponsored links in with their search results or giving them priority. So even searching for something very specific like "Obamacare" and "Digby" I now get a whole bunch of irrelevant hits in Germany (my location) or in Dutch (my browser language setting).

          The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

          by lotlizard on Thu Nov 21, 2013 at 10:10:45 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Insurance rates have been on the rise (0+ / 0-)

      for years...including rates through employer sponsored plans....That has nothing to do with ACA...so, I am not 100% sure of your point.  While I generally believe that Dems have been horrible at proactively getting their message out, people also have an obligation to ask questions and get to the truth, generally doesn't happen.  So, we end up with the mess that we have.

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