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View Diary: China Claims Airspace Around Senkaku Islands (34 comments)

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  •  Imagine (7+ / 0-)

    Once upon a (fairly recent) time, Japan laid claim to most of what is now China, as well as the Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Burma, Indonesia and a vast archipelago of Pacific islands, including the Solomons, and Iryan Jaya.    

    China has been involved with these islands since the Ming Dynasty, around the 15th Century.  That was before it became common practice to "claim" geographical areas.  It's interesting to me that the West tends to define "normal" as "claims" made the during the situation that existed during the peak of European and North American ascendency.

    Neither China nor Japan gave much of a shit about these islands until it was discovered that there might be oil and other resources in the seabed surrounding them.  It would behoove everyone to get off their nationalistic high horses and to work out a deal to share the resources (or, even better, agree to save the environment by making the whole area a non-exploitable  park).

    I have a good friend whose mother grew up in Beijing during the Japanese occupation. The mother utterly hated any and all Japanese.  She was the Japan-hating equivalent of an anti-Semite.  

    There is a very strong strain in Chinese society that could give a shit about what Japan thinks and would welcome a chance to kill "dwarf pirates", which is a Chinese term for the Japanese.

    This collision must be headed off at the pass instead of being exploited for geopolitical advantage.

    I see nobody in power willing to step up to the plate.

    This aggression will not stand, man.

    by kaleidescope on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 05:29:40 PM PST

    •  The Japanese occupiers of China were (5+ / 0-)

      extremely harsh on the Chinese people, and they have never forgotten. I have family in China and the hatred still runs deep. From the stories they have told, I can understand why.

      Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. Theodore Roosevelt

      by Zwoof on Sun Nov 24, 2013 at 06:43:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The Rape of Nanking (0+ / 0-)

        is a book that spoke about the atrocities committed by the Japanese against the Chinese in the 30's.  

        The hatred between the two runs very deep.

        It's interesting that  Taiwan, the native people love the Japanese and aren't particularly fond of the Chinese despite the fact that the Chinese are the majority there.  The Japanese occupied Taiwan before Chiang Kai Shek and the nationalists who followed decided to make it their permanent residence.  They subsequently killed off many of the native people and relegated the rest to second class citizenship.  Maybe it's because of their heavy handedness that the natives like the Japanese.  Similarly many Japanese visit Taiwan for vacation, visiting some of the sites from when they were still dominant there.    

        China is not well liked in that part of the world for many reasons.  I suspect though this is just a prelude for China to eventually take Taiwan back and expand their territory.  

        This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

        by DisNoir36 on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 04:07:18 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  This is incorrect (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, AllisonInSeattle, agent

      The Senkakus were never "involved" by either the Ming or Qing dynasties and were never considered part of either empire's territory. The Chinese never considered the Senkakus theirs until 1971 when both Taipei and Beijing suddenly announced that the Senkakus were theirs and began systematically altering their maps and history books.

      See my piece in the Diplomat a couple of weeks ago:

      and this one from DKOS a while back:

      What Chinese expanionists are doing is the same kind of thing the Germans did in the 1930s and European expansionists had done for centuries: rewrite the history books to show that they had "always" owned something.


    •  There also is a very strong strain in Chinese (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AllisonInSeattle, agent

      society that couldn't give a shit about what anyone in any neighboring country or occupied territory thinks if it doesn't mesh with Chinese nationalist interests.

      The ongoing conflicts with India, Vietnam, and the Philippines, in addition to the conflict with Japan, demonstrate that pretty clearly.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 12:43:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It takes two to tango (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        And nationalists everywhere are pretty much the same, even when they are Japanese, Indian, Vietnamese or American.

        But of late, Vietnam and India have been patching things up because we have a history longer than the existence of the the USA, actually.

        At least Chinese don't conduct war games off the coast of the US and claim "strategic national interests" on the opposite side of the globe from where we live, but the same cannot be said for the USA.

        Maybe you should cool off a bit.

        •  Nationalists generally are more virulent in (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          countries where there is no freedom of the press, like in China.

          Vietnam and India are increasingly allied because China threatens both of them.

          And China doesn't conduct war games off the coast of the U.S. because they don't have the capability to do so yet and because there are no allied nations near the U.S. coast.  They love their war games far from their shores, in the EEZ's of the Philippines and Vietnam, though.

          And China sure doesn't seem to have any ethical issues with ethnically cleansing Tibetans out of existence and leaning hard on ethnic minorities.

          I don't need to cool off, but China sure does.

          "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

          by Lawrence on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 05:43:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Links please ? (0+ / 0-)
            Nationalists generally are more virulent in countries where there is no freedom of the press, like in China.
            I find nationalists everywhere can be pretty irrational and virulent but if you are going to insist such behavior is indicative of lack of freedoms, than I suppose we can conclude the nationalist right in Japan, USA and even Norway are living in countries that lack freedom of the press because these folks are incendiary and rattle sabers like crazy, so that would be the logical conclusion following your reasoning.


            "Bomb, Bomb, Bomb,Bomb, Bomb Iran" - anonymous US Right Wing Nationalist

            I mis-stated Vietnam/India; my intention was to state these countries have been patching-up with China, not each other. Sorry, my bad English. But if you follow events, you may notice that absent some provocative behavior from the US in the past several years which has not been helpful, we seen to use diplomatic means to settle our differences. Hence, recent agreements between India and China and Vietnam and China.

            And China doesn't conduct war games off the coast of the U.S. because they don't have the capability to do so yet and because there are no allied nations near the U.S. coast.  They love their war games far from their shores, in the EEZ's of the Philippines and Vietnam, though.
            Actually, we don't have to go far to witness US war games in our region; since the end of WWII, the US has maintained a military hegemony in East Asia and a constant presence along the coast of China, and quite regularly rattle it's sabers when anyone dares to challenge that, and if we look at the history of US military interventions in that period, including a few recent preemptive wars in our backyard, Americans are in no position to question the motives of others nor point fingers and lecture about aggression.

            But I wonder how American would rect if the shoe was on the other foot, something you have little or no experience with.

            But that never stops you, and I'm afraid Mr. Obama has drunk deep from that jar of Kool Aid with his "Pivot to Asia" doctrine that even many mainstream American foreign policy experts consider rather hawkish and ill-advised since (a) the US cannot really afford the policy and (b) it creates the certain impression that the US is trying to contain China, militarily and economically, which I personally have little doubt of since I follow the policy quite studiously.

            Now Mr. Obama faces the problem; having emboldened a right wing Japanese government, the US has no choice but to stand behind Mr. Abe's revisionist, hawkish LDP due to treaty obligations and there can no longer be any pretense of neutrality in the dispute, a position the US tried to stake in the past year or so after realizing the provocations made by Clinton and Gates at the beginning of his term were unwise.

            Should be interesting.

            Well, thanks for your opinion.

            Can we agree the powerful will always claim they are noble and benevolent just as the wealthy are certain the world is fair?

            •  As a part German, I'll give you a very clear (0+ / 0-)

              example of how freedom of the press(or lack of) influences nationalism:

              Nazi Germany - No freedom of the press, virulent nationalism

              Democratic Republic of Germany - High level of press freedom, little nationalism

              There are other factors, as well, but the fact is that the Chinese Govt. loves to whip up nationalism in order to distract from internal problems.  There is no equivalent to blogs like DailyKos in China.  In fact, bloggers would be in serious danger of jail time for being as critical of their own govt. as bloggers are elsewhere.

              Another factor is, of course, imperial history and might of country.  China has that, too, which doesn't really help in dampening virulent nationalism.

              Americans have every right to lecture about aggression if they see aggression, as does every other citizen of the world.  You may not want to admit it, but China is an aggressive country with some truly messed up policies that is actively engaging in ethnic and cultural cleansing.  If the U.S. was doing something similar to what China is doing in Tibet and was trying to claim that the sea, including entire coastlines of other countries, was U.S. territory, I'd be camped in front of the White House protesting all the time.  As you are well aware of, that is not something that you would be allowed to do in China.

              "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

              by Lawrence on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 09:44:07 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you serious? (0+ / 0-)

                On the basis of your reasoning, no country should ever trust the USA given its history of expansionism, imperialism and ethnic cleansing.

                Have you not studied American history 101?

                And are you not aware the US has 700+ foreign bases including several new ones in Asia including in China's back yard?

                While China, the expansionist menace has exactly zero?

                Suggest you get a few more facts before you argue further.

                •  Has the U.S conquered and annexed any (0+ / 0-)

                  foreign countries recently and then proceeded to ethnically cleanse them, like China is currently doing in Tibet?

                  Is the U.S. run by a bunch of corrupt dudes who can't be replaced in elections if the people decide they want to get rid of them?

                  I suggest you talk to some Indians, Mongolians, South Koreans, Japanese, Vietnamese, or Filipinos and ask them which country they are more wary of.

                  "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

                  by Lawrence on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:50:57 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You don't know me and don't know China (0+ / 0-)

                    I am a Chinese working for a Japanese company for more than 20 years and have visited virtually every country you have mentioned and have friends in all, including the USA where I attended university.

                    I know the history in all directions but you apparently are totally ignorant of the facts of US history to an extent I find incredible.  

                    Are you even remotely familiar with the treatment of native Americans, African Americans and Asian Americans (particularly Chinese who were subject to violence, disenfranchisement and systematic discrimination) at the hands of European immigrants?

                    Or how many people have been killed by American military in just the past decade alone?  What planet are you living on?

                    Furthermore, you are so virulently anti-Chinese that there is no further purpose to this discussion.

                    I have one request: do not respond to my posts here ever again and I will do likewise for you as I have been a member in good standing here for more than 8 years and have every intention of remaining so.

                    End of discussion.

                    Please leave me alone.

                    Thank you for respecting my request.

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