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View Diary: Unacceptable Jew-Hatred (109 comments)

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  •  You're free to feel that way (0+ / 0-)

    and I support your freedom to choose whatever you want to believe in.

    I've no interest in forcing anyone to believe what I believe and neither do most believers. Only the ones with money and television stations seem to think that way, and I've had my issues with them for a while now.

    Personally my faith guides my steps and how I treat others. I try to be kind, I try to be compassionate and I try to treat other people how I want to be treated; but I also stand up for what I think is right whether that makes me unpopular or not. I say what I mean and I mean what I say; and sometimes that gets me in trouble. I tend not to sugarcoat things when I feel that truth is more important than niceties; and I can be downright blunt and sarcastic when I think I need to be.

    But as I said, you're free to believe as you want, and more power to you. I believe my faith and my religion have aided me and allowed me to survive things that might have otherwise killed me.

    “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

    by bayushisan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:47:07 AM PST

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    •  yes, we are (0+ / 0-)
      You're free to feel that way
      We did not kill your Jesus- and neither did any living person on the planet today.

      You are free to feel that any living person on the planet today is responsible for the killing of your Jesus- but even you cannot believe that anyone living on the planet today actually killed him.

      As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

      by BPARTR on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 10:54:26 AM PST

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      •  Here's where I don't like english at times (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greenbell

        Other languages can be a bit more precise without having to get hyper-technical. lol

        By responsible I mean in the sense that we're the reason for His death and resurrection. No one alive today actively took His life, and that's not the impression I was trying to give.

        Too many definitions of the word responsible in this case, as it can lead to interpreting things I didn't intend.

        “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

        by bayushisan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 11:25:11 AM PST

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        •  as I said, (0+ / 0-)

          you are entitled to believe what you wish

          we're the reason for His death and resurrection
          but while YOU may believe that I am the reason, I do not, and I don't really appreciate you including me in your beliefs.  (Much as Jews do not like being baptized or having their ancestors or family members baptized by Mormons.)

          In both cases, It is presumptuous and disregards the feelings of others.

          As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

          by BPARTR on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 12:38:01 PM PST

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          •  There's a rather stark difference there (0+ / 0-)

            Part of spreading the Gospel, which is Great Commission of the Church, is talking about the reasons for the death, burial and resurrection; and that means you have get into context of what things mean. In telling someone about our beliefs and sharing the faith with them we have to explain it in a way that a person can relate to. There's an oft forgotten interpretation of John 3:16 that people used to talk about that I rarely hear mentioned any more. I was once told, many years ago, that the best explanation for everything was to take that verse and replace the words the World with your name. Even if you were the only person that ever came to Him He still would have come. So when I say we're the reason, I don't mean that in the negative context, it's in the context of His love. (again none of this should come as a shock to anyone. I've repeatedly mentioned my faith and how much it matters to me)

            When the Mormons posthumously baptize someone, that someone and their family has no choice in the matter. They just do it and the heck with what anyone thinks or feels about it. Their actions are reprehensible for a number of reasons, but one of the most important is the negation of choice. You cannot force someone to be your faith, no matter what you try or what ritual you perform.  They have to actively choose, and once they're dead it's a little too late to make a choice.

            “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

            by bayushisan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 01:21:37 PM PST

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            •  then we apparently agree, (0+ / 0-)

              and you will say

              I'm the reason for His death and resurrection
              rather than "we're the reason."

              As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

              by BPARTR on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 01:52:19 PM PST

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              •  Oh boy..... (0+ / 0-)

                This is where we're gonna part ways. I'm going to have to say something and it's going to be really unpopular. But I'm going to try and say this as elegantly as possible.

                No.

                I'm not going to alter the message for someone else's comfort. To do so would be a betrayal of the truth of what I believe in and I just can't do that. You're asking me to alter the meaning of scripture at this point and I cannot do that and still say I'm a Christian. It's an abject betrayal of everything I believe in to say that, because in my heart I don't believe it to be true.

                I don't ask people to say things that they don't believe are true. It wouldn't be right. The message is the message and they have to deliver it honestly, and believe me I've seen plenty of things that have offended me to my core but I don't demand that someone take them off the air or stop printing them; or even stop speaking publicly about them.

                If there is a concern about what certain sects are saying I try to point out who those people are and say where they are wrong, because that's part of my job as a believer. I have to stand up and say something when there are false teachings going around, I just want people to be made aware of what's going on.

                If this angers you, then I guess it angers you; but I can no more betray my core then I can betray my integrity. Both are too important too me, and are some of the few things that are truly mine, and the few things in this world that are not transitory.

                “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

                by bayushisan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 02:29:25 PM PST

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                •  Huh? You don't ask people to say things (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BPARTR

                  that they don't believe are true, but you feel compelled to point out false teachings and people being wrong and making people aware of their wrongness but somehow none of this is evidence of asking people to say things that they don't believe are true because it's all cool as long as they agree with you?
                  Or something?

                  •  There is a difference (0+ / 0-)

                    between me showing someone where there are problematic points in a teaching, and me writing a televangelist to tell him to alter what he's teaching.

                    One is a counter point, and letting that person decide what to believe on their own. I never tell someone that THEY have to believe it's false. I tell them why I believe it's false and show my evidence to support. Just like anyone else would making a claim.

                    The other is sheer arrogance on my part. While I may think I'm right on something it's not my place to take that route other than to say that I disagree with him and to tell him why I disagree. Telling him, or her, that they HAVE to change to suit me is just arrogant.

                    “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

                    by bayushisan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 03:03:46 PM PST

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                •  Bayushisan, I commend you (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  hester, PinHole, TiaRachel

                  for being honest about what you believe in and what you are passionate about.  

                  I am speaking to you now as a Jew:

                  As a Christian, the narrative of Jesus clearly has a deep and compelling meaning for you.  Its message of forgiveness, redemption, and transcendence of suffering hopefully gives meaning to your life and helps you be a better person.

                  Far be it from me to attack or diminish the source of this inspiration.  And yet, when you (or any believing Christian) conflate "The Jews" of the gospel --your sacred scriptures-- in any way with the modern day or historical Jewish people, you are making a statement that is not only hurtful to me right now as a Jew, but one that has justified centuries of murder and oppression of Jews by Christians throughout history.

                  I do not accept that such a belief about "the Jews" is irrevocably tied up with the true essence of your faith.  I say this because I know many devout Christians who are fine examplars of the life and message of Jesus who have wrestled with this question successfully.  They have concluded antisemitism is a poisonous branch of the church and is not needed in their faith.

                  •  That really is not my intent (0+ / 0-)

                    and if it was taken that way I apologize.

                    I've always condemned how your people were historically treated, especially by those who were supposedly proclaiming the very faith I profess. Hatred like that and what I believe in are mutually exclusive and I honestly don't conflate the people of then with the people of now in the terms of "you actively did X" because, as I said earlier, there's no one alive today who is actively guilty of killing anyone from two thousand years ago.

                    I admit that I get aggravated sometimes when I don't mean to, because I only have my one frame of reference for talking about these things. I can only tell you what I've read and my thoughts on it, and that I condemn the history of genocide attempts against your people. It was wrong, and it never should have happened. Antisemitism is a very poisonous thing and I don't want people to think that my mind goes there.

                    I want to be honest about what I believe because I believe in Truth above all, but I also want to express that I am not about placing blame on anyone and I'm sorry if it was taken that way.

                    Just so you and I are at an understanding, and so anyone else understands. When I say that the Bible says X I'm not blaming anyone today for it. Individuals of that time in that place did terrible things and only they are accountable for what happened, not the entire people. That's what I was trying to say, and said very, very poorly.  Only I am accountable for what I say and do, and I take responsibility for my comment going pear shaped.

                    Again maggid, I'm sorry if I seemed hurtful as that was not my intent. I like writing and I try my best to be clear, but I make many mistakes. I understood what I said, but it's obvious at this point that it was woefully inadequate.

                    “Fairy tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten.” ― G.K. Chesterton

                    by bayushisan on Mon Nov 25, 2013 at 06:18:06 PM PST

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                    •  No, I don't believe that you do (0+ / 0-)
                      because I believe in Truth above all
                      You believe in Faith above all.  

                      You believe in YOUR reading of Scripture above all.

                      You believe that the BIBLE says X (and hence it must be true) so what the BIBLE says (in your understanding of your translation) is inerrent?   Or do you bleieve in the 3 types of scripture I described above.  Becasue if the Bible is inerrent throught, then you have some serious inconsistencies in Biblical history, and in your behavior today.

                      As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

                      by BPARTR on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 07:39:35 AM PST

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                •  There is absolutely no difference (0+ / 0-)

                  between your including me in your message, and the Mormons including Jews in their church by incantation (baptism, when there is no one there to baptize).
                  Like you, they say

                  I'm not going to alter the message for someone else's comfort.
                  Like you, they believe that it is their duty to their god to carry out the baptism. In your case, youconsider the duty to prosetylize, in their case they consider it their duty to Baptize.

                  As my father used to say,"We have the best government money can buy."

                  by BPARTR on Tue Nov 26, 2013 at 08:07:42 AM PST

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