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View Diary: Report: U.S. Gov. And Corporate Security Companies Collude to Bring Down Social Justice Groups (216 comments)

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  •  Spain had a leftist democratic government (1+ / 0-)
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    Ray Pensador

    who wasn't feeding its population, and was caught off guard by the fascists, whom the anarchist unions fought off with their own militia, without which, the fascist coup would have been over in weeks, with no thanks from the non-interventionist policy of the US, which did allow some industries to help the fascists, despite the policy.

    You simply haven't studied this.

    Here's a video of the history of the anarchist period in Spain (not really expecting you to watch this, but others here might benefit):

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

    by ZhenRen on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 05:40:07 PM PST

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    •  which side prevailed? (0+ / 0-)

      excuses are excuses. when models consistently fail, it's time to look past the excuses. the fascists, the capitalists, and the crazies always will be better armed. now more than ever.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 08:48:33 PM PST

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      •  So, clearly (0+ / 0-)

        you think might makes a model socially superior. So if some big brute takes a punch at you tonight, and you end up crippled, you would be an inferior model? Social Darwinism applied on a regional scale is still social Darwinism.

        Not exactly a sane or logical basis for determining how to best organize society.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 09:34:11 PM PST

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        •  try again (0+ / 0-)

          it's not a question of social superiority- as much as wannabe revolutionaries so often have self-justified by believing, and so often self-justified their own failures or, when they prevailed politically, their own morphing into that which they defeated- it's about what does and doesn't work. i happen to think it's socially superior to help create the conditions that allow people to improve their own lives. the new deal, despite its many flaws, did a much better job of that than any revolutions. scandinavian socialism has done a better job of that than pretty much anything.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 10:40:24 PM PST

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          •  This is illogical (0+ / 0-)

            You can't even compare, realistically, a system which has prevailed historically through force to systems which have been overcome through force.

            That doesn't make any sense, Lewis.

            As to the slur of "wannabe-revolutionaries" which really is a mindless putdown, if we can't even discuss alternative systems without them being summarily dismissed because they are simply not conventional at the moment, how could humankind even conceive, ever, of anything better?

            Even if this better approach to organizing society -- which has a track record of working -- never comes to be, it is still important, vitally so, that we as social beings explore and discover more livable, satisfying arrangements, so as to have a concept of what to work toward.

            If we cannot do this, and are eternally stuck with the conventions of the moment, and forever barred from anything better, then we are condemning ourselves to a static, miserably unchanging world.

            We can't move forward if we can't even have the discussion due to a closed mentality. And that closed mentality is distinctly conservative in the classic sense of the word.

            Studying social anarchism, or for that matter various alternatives to capitalism, helps us to be able to  create models to from which to learn, even if only to have something to which we can compare our present system.

            Doing this is therefore not some brainless, useless exercise of dreamers, but rather a highly intelligent endeavor of the most useful purpose known to our species, that of envisioning a better way of living.

            I'm sorry, Lewis, but your condescension is way out of line. And you're not approaching this debate with the best of your abilities. You're smarter than this.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 12:06:16 AM PST

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            •  actually it does make sense (0+ / 0-)

              if you recognize cycles of violence as inherently self-defeating to any prospect of promoting social good. which i do.

              yes, different modes of living should be explored. but that's only the most basic way of expressing it. we need to promote the development and evolution of different modes of consciousness. anything else will but repeat historical patterns.

              what you continue not to face is that traditional modes of revolution and social change are not different. not historically different, nor even different from the power structures they are trying to bring down. socialism is vastly different than capitalism, but all economic systems and theories only touch certain aspects of the human experience, just as the hubris of political theorists tends to ignore the realities that most people live. which includes an indifference to all political theorizing, whether the official mythologies of the current power structures or the ideals and idols (and in some cases deliberately false ideals and idols) of those who would replace it in their own images.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 01:00:34 AM PST

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              •  Oh, that's claptrap (0+ / 0-)

                The way in which we organize profoundly affects every level of human society.

                Our way of relating to each other changes according to the economic system in such fundamental manner that I'm astounded at your dismissals.

                One system is based on mutual economic warfare, dog-eat-dog competition, the other on mutual aid, sharing, and cooperation.

                Capitalism and hierarchy pits us against each other in horribly insidious ways. The hierarchy is everywhere, from the workplace, to the apartment complex (the manager/owner vs the tenants), relations with fellow workers, which pit them competitively against each other for raises and favors from the boss, the mistreatment of people in lower levels of work hierarchy by higher ups, dealing with the police, and other forms of state authority, all of which alienates people from each other from a multitude of directions.

                And workers are forced into begging for employment (the application process), begging for housing (credit checks, income requirements), begging for raises, begging for time off, begging for better houses (qualifying for a mortgage), begging for entrance into better schools... all of which is competition of citizens against each other.

                 And lets not forget the 870,000 homeless, the poverty the people going without food, dental care, and other needs.

                I could write on for pages about all the ways our system causes conflict, increased crime (most crime involves property), envy, and a pandora's box of various emotions which lead to incivility.

                In an egalitarian society most of this would be eliminated, and done so quite easily.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 01:34:09 AM PST

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                •  here's a clue (0+ / 0-)

                  similar economic systems exist in cultures with vastly different social structures. to be most obvious, that's why you can have american neoliberals in both the theocratic and socially progressive camps. i'm sorry, but kropotkin couldn't have imagined the world we now have. and hierarchies exist in all manner of economic systems, and all lead to disparities and injustices. that's the problem with conceiving the world- and people- in self-limiting economic and materialistic terms. we could all but eliminate poverty and hunger within a year, and it would have nothing to do with employment or wages. but it won't happen through the traditional means of self-righteous theorists, who in the end merely want to replace one hierarchy with their own.

                  The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                  by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 02:56:27 AM PST

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