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View Diary: Report: U.S. Gov. And Corporate Security Companies Collude to Bring Down Social Justice Groups (216 comments)

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  •  people who see the world as power relationships (0+ / 0-)

    see the world as power relationships. they also tend to want but to reorder those relationships. consciousness evolves.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 01:40:07 PM PST

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    •  Only a privileged person (0+ / 0-)

      doesn't understand being at the bottom end of power. Unequal power relationships are basically the cause of most social problems.

      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

      by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 02:01:52 PM PST

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      •  only someone trapped in stale paradigms (0+ / 0-)

        wouldn't understand that being at the top or bottom of a given power structure is the cause of most social problems. oddly enough, many of those working to evolve consciousness as a means of social change are not themselves remotely wealthy. and they don't care about wealth. they don't see the world in terms of wealth.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 02:08:08 PM PST

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        •  clarification (0+ / 0-)

          ISN'T the cause. it is a symptom. until you understand power structures and the focus on power structures as but SYMPTOMS, you will not begin to be able to identify the real problems.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 02:17:12 PM PST

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          •  Goes both ways (0+ / 0-)

            Hierarchy is kept in place by violence. The State keeps its place by violence. No matter whether it is a symptom of consciousness, or the cause of it, or even circular, it is still maintaining the status quo by the force of violence.

            When enough people begin to awaken from the hundreds of years of history that have acculturated them to accept dominance, they will oppose it. This is what occurred in Spain. They had decades of preparation due to activists who helped educate people to what became known in Spain as "la idea".  Spain was different than the rest of Europe in embracing more widely anarchism rather than Marxism.

            The way this process can be helped along is by forming organizations, unions, and assemblies according to the model we would like to see in place in society. If our organizations are built on hierarchy and top down leadership, it reflects, whether you want to acknowledge this or not, an authoritarian mindset.

            We must create organizations which reflect who we are, what our consciousness is. And through these organizations, we can help to inform people of better alternatives.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 02:48:33 PM PST

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            •  let me make this very simple for you (0+ / 0-)

              the status quo IS violence, whether overt or through disenfranchisement and forced poverty and all other deliberate social ills. and that status quo will not be changed merely by musical chairs. of course, some don't really care at all about real change, and only want their chance at a chair.

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 03:30:12 PM PST

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              •  Very good! (0+ / 0-)
                let me make this very simple for you (0+ / 0-)

                the status quo IS violence

                You've just lectured me with my own philosophy, a premise that has been part of anarchist theory since the inception.

                At least we agree, now, on one issue. What we don't agree on is that an egalitarian, non-hierarchical system would be the same thing. It wouldn't. Self defense against oppression? Certainly. Violence to force people into freedom? Not at all. Is defending the revolution against an insurgent ruling class who wants to bring back wage slavery violence? No, it is self defense against violence.

                Takes a bit of time to absorb new things, but think on it. Do some reading.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 05:07:42 PM PST

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                •  as i said (0+ / 0-)

                  theory sometimes accurately identifies the symptoms. it won't cure the cause.

                  The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                  by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 05:18:22 PM PST

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                  •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                    The answer isn't to support the disease because you think there is no cure. Circular logic.

                    If the disease is authority sustained by violence, then the answer is to work toward a non-authoritarian, egalitarian  system that gives respect and freedom to citizens.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 05:50:27 PM PST

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                    •  missing the point yet again (0+ / 0-)

                      the disease is not authority and violence. those are symptoms. the answer is to stop using 19th century miracle elixirs or symptom-numbing opiates and start focusing on the causes.

                      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                      by Laurence Lewis on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 12:47:15 AM PST

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        •  But their privilege blinds them (0+ / 0-)

          just as you are blinded. And being blind, of course you think you're all seeing. So, what is your definition of "consciousness" and "evolving consciousness"? Fair question.

          Did you really mean to repeat what I'd stated? So, you're in agreement?

          only someone trapped in stale paradigms (0+ / 0-)

          wouldn't understand that being at the top or bottom of a given power structure is the cause of most social problems.

          And as to not seeing the world in terms of wealth (which to the middle class and poor means having enough food to eat, living in a decent neighborhood, in agreeable housing) only a class privileged person would say that:
          they don't care about wealth. they don't see the world in terms of wealth.
          My god, you can't be serious. When one is poor, and struggling daily to have enough and keep one's head above water, like it or not, you think about class, about wealth, about the power structure that insures that the poor stay poor. There is no separation between consciousness and the social organizations and structures we create. The two go hand in hand, and if they don't, then it really isn't consciousness at all.

          If your "consciousness" ignores the horrible, enslaving effects of social and economic hierarchy, it isn't consciousness, and it certainly isn't evolved.

          Material conditions have a profound influence on consciousness. One can't loftily transcend this in any workable, sustained way. Miserable conditions are what they are. And if you have experienced miserable material conditions for any duration, you would be conscious of why it is important to achieve social and economic equality.

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 02:37:22 PM PST

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          •  what you fail to understand (0+ / 0-)

            is that millions of people work high stress, low-pay, high social value jobs because it makes society better. others sit around theorizing and feeling self-righteous, dreaming of when they can flip the power structure and they can be on top. while the millions who work high stress, low-pay, high social value jobs because it makes society better will fare little if at all better under the new bosses.

            here's a clue you should be able to understand: the nsa spying, the militarization of the police, the drones, the increasing power of the religious right within the military... who do you think wins in a traditional revolution? even under your own 19th century terms, your 19th century aspirations cannot be realized. the only type of revolution that can work is one of consciousness, because the predominant power structures cannot even perceive it. nor, sadly, can traditional wannabe revolutionaries. and a good number of those millions of people working high stress, low-pay, high social value jobs- who care not a whit for revolutionary theory- are doing more to foster that change in consciousness and that only possible revolution than a century's worth of revolutionary theorists.

            some people dream of change so they can be the ones who will control the reins. others create change, every day, and don't care about the reins one way or another.

            The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

            by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 03:28:09 PM PST

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            •  You still don't get it (0+ / 0-)

              This is tedious. You are so filled with innacurate notions of my suggestions and of what anarchism is, and so incapable or unwilling to learn anything new about the philosophy, that it is nearly impossible to not answer with long post which you obviously don't bother to have enough respect to read. Seriously, just slow down and try to digest a concept or two for a change. Your over-confidence is getting in the way of understanding new concepts.

              First, there wouldn't be any new bosses in anarchic social structure. There wouldn't be new leaders holding the reins. I've explained this to you before, and you just ignore it. For a realistic idea of how this has worked in real life situations, do some reading about the Spanish collectives. They were successful. It seems you fear a new leadership, but you'd be surprised how well an organization can work using direct democracy. Or perhaps you fear direct democracy, and want to old order to prevail.

              while the millions who work high stress, low-pay, high social value jobs because it makes society better will fare little if at all better under the new bosses.
              some people dream of change so they can be the ones who will control the reins. others create change, every day, and don't care about the reins one way or another.
              The fact is, polls reveal that most Americans hate their jobs. Most are not working in positions they applied for, and many feel they need more vacation time, more flexible work schedules, far better pay, and far more of a voice in the work environment. Are there some individuals who would prefer to turn authority over their lives to others? Certainly, and obviously, you have made that choice. You want a boss. And in a collective, you would be able to simply leave the democratic management and delegation of positions to the rest of your fellow workers, if you were disinterested in participating in that way. No one would force you to do anything. Your life would not change much in that respect, if that were your disposition, although you would likely be able to work fewer hours, have more time off, and better pay, and better, more reliable benefits. If you didn't want the benefits, certainly you would be able to refuse them. If you wanted to work more hours, certainly you would be allowed to do that. If you wanted someoen to tell you what to do, that might be a problem. It would be a new world, and you would find yourself with freedom that you might be unaccustomed to.

              What you would not be allowed to do is lord over others using a higher position in a hierarchical structure. Maybe that is what you find threatening?

              As to revolutions and your strawman notions of them, which you keep trying to erect in place of my own arguments, no one has said social consciousness isn't a key factor. It is always a key factor. There are ways to educate, using social justice movements, to help generate awareness in the public. And by preparing in advance, its possible that sometime in the future (impossible to predict) an opportunity may arise. If the people are not prepared, the opportunities can be lost.

              Revolutions can occur without firing a shot.  It may not matter how much the authorities try to clamp down, if enough people get fed up. Everything changes when Americans are asked to fire upon their own families. Systems break down, and in the vacuum which follows, change occurs. The irony is it is far more likely anarchism will prevail than democratic socialism, since one depends on cooperation of the state (which has never historically occurred), while the other would replace it entirely (which has historically occurred).

              What the Spanish anarchists found is while not all were dedicated anarchists in the anarchist regions of Spain, there were enough present to move the rest to try out the ideas, when the State was paralyzed into inaction. People went along, and most were quite happy. Those who weren't (generally owning class) were allowed to continue without joining a collective (if they had a small family business or farm, and didn't hire wage-labor). Many of these who continued as individualists eventually joined the collectives to take advantage of the efficiency of collective effort. Many who weren't anarchists nevertheless went to assembly meetings, and found the ideas to their liking. I can almost guarantee that the poor right wing persons I know would love anarchism once they experienced it. I've talked with them, and I know what they want, and I think anarchism would give it to them.

              So, we will see. I know how I want to live. Maybe we can allow each other to enjoy our preferred way of life. But I am steadfast in one thing: Capitalist domination of resources, imposition of slave wages, and hierarchical control are a violation of my rights. And I will oppose them, and oppose you in your authoritarian support of them until my last dying breath.

              I promise that to you.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 04:50:20 PM PST

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              •  yes (0+ / 0-)
                I know how I want to live.
                and it might not have anything to do with how the majority of people want to live. but continue to indulge in your theorizing, while others are busy trying to make the world a better place here and now.

                The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                by Laurence Lewis on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 05:17:35 PM PST

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                •  Not at all true (0+ / 0-)

                  There are more of us than you think, and our numbers are growing. And coalitions can be formed with groups of like mind. Things can change. People can change. We each have a right to work for workers' rights, and put an end to unjust authority. Civil rights are not a matter of obtaining permission. They are rights, whether permission is granted or not. If we don't speak out, because of naysayers, how can anyone ever learn of new ideas?

                  And just who is making the world a better place? Democrats? Really? Ask the civilian drone bombing victims about that, or the poor without jobs, or the people who've lost their homes, or the underpaid workers.

                  Sorry, no thanks.

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 05:57:27 PM PST

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                  •  here's where you continue to miss a key point (0+ / 0-)
                    If we don't speak out, because of naysayers, how can anyone ever learn of new ideas?
                    a good number of people don't care one whit about political ideas. a good number of people see political theorizing itself as an indulgence of privilege. but go for it. meanwhile, some of us will be working with people to make people's lives better here and now.

                    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                    by Laurence Lewis on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 12:43:30 AM PST

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                    •  We're now repeating ourselves (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Ray Pensador

                      I haven't look at any other recent replies you've made, but I think it's safe to say at this point we've each made our points.

                      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                      by ZhenRen on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 05:42:01 PM PST

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