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View Diary: Does our president look like a gorilla? (619 comments)

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  •  Have you ever actually seen a gorilla? n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    dance you monster, grubber
    •  Live Gorilla vs. Cartoon Ape (8+ / 0-)

      The appearance of an actual live gorilla is irrelevant, as there are thousands of cartoon portrayals of gorillas that have entered the cultural consciousness over the decades of print media. And the drawing at issue is similar to those, unquestionably.

      Actual gorillas are quite handsome animals.

      "I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor." ~ Pope Francis

      by paz3 on Wed Nov 27, 2013 at 03:52:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So you admit it does not look like a gorilla... (0+ / 0-)

        which is unfortunate for the diarist as that is their claim.  As for you claim that is resembles a cartoon portrayal of a gorilla, I'd have to ask for you to back that up.  Here is a familiar cartoon portrayal of a gorilla.  Here is another.  I'd argue the cartoon in question much more closely resembles this cartoon ape.

    •  Yep (3+ / 0-)
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      churchylafemme, Wordsinthewind, poco

      And I've seen caricatures of black people drawn by racists who think its funny to depict blacks as subhuman.

      The cartoonist's drawing looked more like that than like a real ape. So what's your point?

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      by mole333 on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 10:19:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  My point is it doesn't look like a gorilla... (0+ / 0-)

        which you seem to agree with.  So what's your point?

        •  That... (4+ / 0-)

          The cartoonist drew Obama in a manner that is distinctly similar to how known racists draw black "folks" in order to denigrate them as subhuman. So the cartoonist pretty much drew Obama in a manner commonly associated with racism.

          The cartoonist did NOT draw Obama the way Obama actually looks. That is pretty clear. He did NOT draw Obama in an anatomically correct manner as a gorilla. But what he DID do was draw Obama exactly the way racists often draw blacks when they want to denigrate them as subhuman. That is the context of the cartoon. I cannot ignore that context. If the cartoonist did not intend it, then he should recognize the cultural context, denounce it, and revise his depiction.

          Is that clear enough?

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          by mole333 on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 09:18:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  But it doesn't look like a gorilla... (0+ / 0-)

            which was the claim of this diary and the point I was making.  So, your point is irrelevant.

            •  Willful ignorance? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Radiowalla, Yasuragi, poco

              Sorry, but it sounds like your point is either deliberately obnoxious or willfully ignorant. If your only point is that it doesn't resemble a real gorilla, then it sounds like your point is the irrelevant one. My point is precisely the reason why so many people objected to the cartoon, hence is relevant.

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              by mole333 on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 06:41:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •   You are incorrect. (0+ / 0-)

                If your point is, it doesn't matter whether it looks like a gorilla, it's still racist, that would be a arguable point.  But my original post was not in response to you it was in response to the diarists claim that the cartoon looks like a gorilla. Perhaps facts do not matter to you as long as the people being insulted are the people you believe ought to be insulted.  They matter to me.  You may call that being ignorant or being obnoxious, I call it being objective.  

                Making demonstrably inaccurate claims about the cartoon derails the conversation as to whether it is racist by calling into question the objectivity of the claimant.

                •  Ummm... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Yasuragi, poco

                  You would be right except for the fact that, as I pointed out, the picture looks like how know racists portray blacks as apes. The fact that it is biologically incorrect is far less important than the fact that it draws on very well established racist memes.

                  I am willing to back off from "ignorant" and "obnoxious" accusations. I can be wrong. But your comments gave me that impression. So let's start over.

                  The portrayal in the cartoon in question is completely in line with how racists have routinely portrayed blacks as subhuman apes. Those racists are not known for their scientific understanding, so their portrayal of blacks as apes has always been far from biologically accurate. The cartoonist chose to portray Obama in a manner that is extremely similar to how racists routinely and explicitly portray blacks as subhuman apes. Your point that the racist portrayal is not biologically accurate seems beside the point to me. It initially struck me as either willfully ignorant or deliberately obnoxious, but maybe I am wrong about that.

                  The portrayal has clear historical parallels to deliberately racist (and yes...biologically inaccurate) portrayals of blacks as apes. THAT is why, speaking for myself at the moment, it was objectionable.

                  Getting to your precise point, I am trying to say you are being excessively pedantic and in a way that seems either willfully ignorant or deliberately obnoxious. The diary, and all the objections, seems pretty clear and straightforward to me and little different than if someone portrayed Netanyahu (who I personally detest) with a giant hook nose and a greedy expression hoarding money. You seem to be saying "but it isn't accurate so it is okay." Did I misread?

                  Making use of historically racist images as if that history doesn't exist is inexcusable. If done unintentionally, then the response is NOT to attack those who point it out but rather to alter the presentation to preserve the message but remove the historical baggage.

                  FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes! Find me on Linkedin.

                  by mole333 on Sun Dec 01, 2013 at 10:02:00 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You are incorrect... (0+ / 0-)

                    because the author of this diary did not make the claim that the cartoon resembles how "know racists portray blacks as apes." Instead the diarist made a specific claim that the cartoon image of President Obama resembles a gorilla. It does not.  The fact that it is not biologically correct is of paramount importance, because that is the only way to demonstrate that it looks like a gorilla.

                    If you accept that the image does not look like a gorilla, then you accept that the diarist has made a false claim.  I would hope that you share my opinion that making false claims is bad. Your argument seems to be, however, that we should ignore this false claim because it fits in with your argument.  My contention is that doing so makes you argument look fallacious. If you are ok with that, so be it, but your insults aren't helping any.

                    •  mole's right on both counts: the Rall drawing (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      poco, mole333

                      has all the features of a historically racist cartoon -- cartoons which evolved over time until they looked like his.  Further, the diary is about Rall's caricature, not gorillas.

                      And he's right about this, too:

                      you are being excessively pedantic and in a way that seems either willfully ignorant or deliberately obnoxious.
                      Your defense of the cartoon in question is specious.

                      Isn't it time for the US Govt to give Leonard Peltier back his freedom? ** "Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." -- Willie Stargell

                      by Yasuragi on Sun Dec 01, 2013 at 12:13:34 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Congratulations. (0+ / 0-)

                        But what you and mole fail to understand is that I have not argued against the proposition that the cartoon is racist, but against the specific claim that the cartoon looks like a gorilla. It does not.  If you would like to make a counter argument, you are free to explain in what way the cartoon image in question resembles a gorilla.  Otherwise, you are just tilting at windmills.

                        Your defense of the cartoon in question is specious.
                        Given the closest thing to a defense i have made of the cartoon is that the figure representing President Obama does not look like a gorilla, this quote is either a blatant lie, demonstrates your ignorance of the thread, or calls into question your understanding of the definition of "specious".
                    •  No... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Yasuragi

                      Sorry but you really do seem to be deliberately obnoxious here. I don't know why you are choosing the tactic you are choosing, but it is basically either ignoring or embracing historically racist iconography. I want nothing to do with either.

                      Please continue to ignore or embrace clear racism. I will not do so and I did my best to explain reality to you. You continue to hammer away at a single irrelevant point as if it was decisive, but NO ONE else thinks it is anything but irrelevant and I explained why. You ignored it. I have nothing more to say to you.

                      FREEDOM ISN'T FREE: That's why we pay taxes! Find me on Linkedin.

                      by mole333 on Sun Dec 01, 2013 at 04:40:13 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  You are being deliberately obtuse. (0+ / 0-)

                        I retract my earlier statement giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are opposed to false claims. I have made NO claims as to the presence or absence of racism in the cartoon. This a lie on your part.

                        So enjoy your smug sense of superiority.  It is entirely undeserved.

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