Skip to main content

View Diary: Is It Inherently Immoral to Visit a Sex Worker for Penetrative Sex? (374 comments)

Comment Preferences

    •  I don't find it much more offensive (5+ / 0-)

      than the diary, quite frankly.

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Thu Nov 28, 2013 at 07:42:55 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Its mostly like the comment on sex only with marri (0+ / 0-)

        marriage, ie, that could be contrued as a tad homophobic, which I have no idea if that's what Willinois was getting to, but if might be safe to assume, and I just repsonded to vadem down further in more detail on this.

    •  HR? (6+ / 0-)

      Why?  The diarist asked for our opinions and I gave mine.  I did not insult or call names in the process.

      •  I couldn't disagree more with your comment, (8+ / 0-)

        but to HR you would have been clear ratings abuse.

        •  Which is why... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          ...I really wish DK would adopt a voting/rating system that allows us to downrate as a quick expression of disargeement and move on.  I too have come across comments I'd like to do that to, but are not offensive and worthy of hiderating and other blogs I've been on do have such a system.

          •  The four-point rating system (0+ / 0-)

            allowed one to do that.  As you probably recall given your ID#, under that system, a "2" was considered a shot across the bow to warn the commenter that he/she was pushing the envelope. The "3" was rarely used and should have gone away; but going to a 3-point rating instead of the 2-point system we have now would have been preferable for that very reason.

          •  I sometimes reply to comments like that with (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:


            in the comment line and nothing else. It gets the point across.

            Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

            by Wee Mama on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 07:44:34 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The community is going to have to find (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Wee Mama

              creative ways to deal with the creeping nastiness in some of these threads and of the small but growing minority of provocative and nasty commenters. A stock response such as the one you cited or a small set of stock responses would be a good start; but that should develop organically, as most other good ideas on this site (e.g., the mostly-abandoned practice of posting cat pics and recipes in response to trolls) have developed.

            •  It's such a shame no one will just hand you a (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              priceman, Nada Lemming, FrankRose

              ruler and let you rap knuckles.

              With your innate sense of evenhanded justice and the amazing bias free way you dole out your "1"s this place would just be cleaned up all spiffy in a jiffy!

              "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

              by JesseCW on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 09:24:22 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  If you disagree, explain why. It's not hard to (7+ / 0-)

            use your words.

            A "You're WRONG" button isn't communication.  

            "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

            by JesseCW on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 09:20:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Not a "you're wrong" button: (0+ / 0-)

              No one is suggesting that. I think that all of us, at one time or another, have found ourselves in an exchange with someone whose comments never quite rise to HR levels, but are rude, combative, and unproductive. Ultimately you are faced with the choice of allowing yourself to be drawn further into an unproductive argument, or just backing down and reinforcing the behavior. It would be useful under those circumstances to have another option, a symbolic slap on the hand as well as a warning to others who might be prone to uprate that person that hey, this is not passion that you're witnessing here, this is not spirit, it's just plain rudeness, and should not be rewarded.

              •  Suck it up. We all have to deal with people (12+ / 0-)

                whose behavior is simply unacceptable in our cultural context.

                For instance, people who frequent this site are very disproportionately privileged college graduates who engage in frequent smarmy passive-aggressive efforts to school-marm everyone they encounter.  

                They've been raised to believe that the blunt language and direct manner of the "lower classes" is unacceptable and must be "disciplined out of them".

                It's disgusting behavior that would get the promptly ejected from the home of anyone in my family, while a forthright "fuck you" would be seen as far more respectful.

                But this isn't either of our houses, no one here is our children, and the very notion that any of us posses the right to fucking "slap hands" here is so fucking patronizing, arrogant, and authoritarian that it deserves not a smarmy purse-lipped cowardly "1" (tee hee, didn't I show that low-class serf not to get above their station) but rather a deep throated and hearty

                fuck that shit

                "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                by JesseCW on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 11:43:40 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

                  Didn't think it'd happen this quickly:


                  •  Ah, if only the world could be made in my image (10+ / 0-)

                    But I do want to make a serious comment.  Rudeness is most certainly in the eye of the beholder.  I have seen some of those in this very thread uprate some outrageously attacking, spiteful comments shortly before lecturing on etiquette.  The problem is that virtually everyone believes their mortal enemies deserve what they get.  If a person truly thinks another person is a racist then they don't consider it rude to call that person out as a racist.  Problem is, humans are frequently wrong.  Not to mention there are liars and operatives deliberately gaming the system, which is another layer of complexity which renders even more delusional the notion that smooth sailing and respectful discourse would be possible if only people were like me.

                    Science has shown definitively that, for those who do not want to see cogent discussion of some topics, rudeness works.  It just does.  It raises the emotional level, and when people are emotional, they no longer think rationally.  Even fair-minded, rational people who are offended by rudeness and see its destructiveness are nonetheless influenced to be less likely to accept the argument which prompted the rudeness.  Not to mention the useful aspect of sidetracking discussion into mutual ad hominem, which is a win/win for those who don't wish to see honest discussion of Obama's lies, to take the recent example.

                    Given this fact, and given that there are people who will go to great lengths to prevent formation of a consensus unfavorable to their view (such as people who claim climate change is not real and people who don't want to see Obama exposed as a liar), it then follows that there are those who will consciously take advantage of this method of opinion control.  I merely consider these manipulations to be an extension of the propaganda surrounding us everywhere.  Of course there are people who are intentionally rude, insulting, and combative when the discussion is trending in a direction they don't like. I think etiquette and upbringing have little to do with it, although the general atmosphere of polarization and fear, an atmosphere consciously nourished by TPTB, certainly contribute to unconscious participation in what has become too unpleasant for me to spend much time participating in.

                    And that's MY lecture on the matter.

                    Secrecy is a hot bed of vanity. - Joseph Brodsky They who have put out the people’s eyes reproach them for their blindness. – John Milton 1642

                    by geomoo on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 01:16:46 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I agree with the premise (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:

                      of what you are saying, even though I sense that you have some disdain for my approach. Polarization and fear do indeed have a strong role in the proliferation of that type of discourse, but rudeness does play a large part as well. And the above comment is a prime example. I really did not expect the commenter to go from 0-60 that suddenly, and his/her effort to paint me as some kind of privileged elitist is laughable, as I will go toe-to-toe with him/her on the "humble beginnings" point any time.

                      My parents worked their butts off so that I and my siblings could reap the benefits of higher education, and I still had to pay off 20 years' worth of student loans to finish the job. They wanted me to be an "elitist," to know things that they did not know and to see and interact with the world in ways that were not accessible to them as children or adults. They also taught me manners, and stressed to me that etiquette was something that I could always have and fall back on even if my clothing was frayed and my stomach was grumbling and I had 5 bucks to get me through to payday. They taught me how to present myself properly to the world, how to speak to others with respect, and how to disagree without being disagreeable. We didn't have much, but a "hearty fuck-you," or whatever that commenter was trumpeting, would have never been tolerated in our house.

                      And the sad thing is, the commenter doesn't have to behave that way. He/she is intelligent enough to present a cogent argument, as evidenced by his/her comments on another diary I was reading today, several of which I actually uprated. But sadly, there is no shortage of that on this site or in society in general: people who wear bluster like a badge of honor and believe that it is some kind of match for civil discourse, when they are really doing is falling right into the low-class stereotype that the true "elitists" out there want them to inhabit.

                      But guess what: I'm from the wrong side of the tracks too, and I see through that "salt of the earth" shit like it's dollar-store chicken soup. It will get you a little mojo from like-minded people, but that's about all. At the end of the day, you're just another ill-mannered crank with nothing of note to contribute.

                      •  Just to be clear, geomoo, (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        geomoo, Be Skeptical, poligirl

                        I wasn't talking about you. I appreciate the time that you took to comment intelligently and civilly.

                      •  Thanks for the response (5+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Be Skeptical, triv33, MHB, denise b, poligirl

                        I used to care a lot about the state of discourse on dkos and work quite hard to reach across to enemies, to build bridges, and to analyze what is wrong.  I don't do that any more.  Perhaps it's simply human nature, but I fear the effort is made even more hopeless by operatives who intentionally work to marginalize certain voices, or at least to keep the discourse heated and ill-defined.  Solidarity is the enemy of some forces.  I can say without hesitation that my experience was that from the time of the 2008 primary, the Obama people brought a level of ruthless attack and personalization not present on the site before, harsh as it could be some time.  It is more than I can bear to seem these same people lecture about civility.

                        But you seem earnest and honest, so I'll respond here.  JesseCW can indeed be quite harsh and quite direct, but his very point is that one person's harshness is another's fair fight.  Please don't think I'm trying to paint you in a certain way or making a remark about your character or intent, but I want to tell you frankly that I find this statement to be as offensive as anything JesseCW said:

                        you're just another ill-mannered crank with nothing of note to contribute.
                        I grew up in the South, where people are expert at heaping sugar on their insults--it doesn't change anything for me, an insult is an insult.

                        I read JesseCW as speaking generally, but he may well have been accusing you of elitism.  If he was, my objection is that we should stick to what people write and stop pretending we can know who they are.  I read your brief bio with interest, and I appreciate your laying it out there.  I can see how you would want to make some things clear, given the turn the discussion took.  But I will also tell you that, in a perfect world, my opinion of what you think and say should be independent of who you are.  After all, isn't this what racism is about?

                        I find one aspect of JesseCW's comments to be helpful--there is a problem of culture clashes creating serious misunderstanding.  That is one of the problems with people lecturing about how their mother raised them.  Not to defend completely his tone, and not to ignore that he seems to turn the tables and declare his way as the more correct one, but I think this is a significant aspect here, apart from the outright lying, manipulation, and willful assholishness.

                        At the risk of coming under serious assault for even expressing an opinion, I will say that I think, to the extent that it is honest, one of the fault lines on dkos is between AA culture and white liberal culture, with different affects being interpreted as having meanings other than the speaker intends.  I have a lot I could say on this topic--I have given it a lot of thought and think I have some insight into these fault lines.  I have written up diaries on the matter, which I never published. thinking there might come a time for working some of these things out.  But over time, I have seen enough that  I would never in a million years dream of trying to have such a conversation here.  It is crystal clear that rational discourse is not possible with some of those who claim to be most concerned about civility and respect in discourse.

                        This is all I will say on the matter.  I appreciate this interaction.  Thanks.

                        Secrecy is a hot bed of vanity. - Joseph Brodsky They who have put out the people’s eyes reproach them for their blindness. – John Milton 1642

                        by geomoo on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 03:18:06 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Thanks again. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          geomoo, poligirl

                          I completely reject the notion that anything I wrote was remotely as offensive as his diatribe, and I fail to see how one's opinions can be independent of one's life experience; but I appreciate your response and hope you have a good evening.

                          •  Wait, I do have a question: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            geomoo, poligirl

                            You made a couple of references to race in your comment. I'm not sure how to say this but to say it: is there a race issue here that I'm not aware of? Just for the sake of disclosure, I'm white.

                          •  Not at you, but that question made me lol. (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, MHB, Nada Lemming, triv33

                            Yeah, I would say there's an enormous race issue here.  Sadly, the election of Obama did not turn out to be a catalyst for honest, painful, soul-searching, hopeful, committed compassionate discussion of race among the left.  No offense, and I'm sorry, but I'm not going to talk about it more than to say it was persistent, often vicious, association of criticism of Obama with racism that caused me to withdraw from strong identification with this so-called community.

                            As to your not seeing the offensiveness of your remark, that's my point.  I tend to agree with the outlook of JesseCW, so I am a lot less likely to see his remarks as unacceptably offensive than I am to see the remarks of someone with whom I usually disagree (not you).  That's just the way it is.  Dishonesty aside (and there is much dishonesty), it has become obvious to me that people simply cannot see the horrible insults coming from people they generally consider as allies, and certainly seem never to notice their own horrendous behavior.  I guess people think they are merely saying what is true.  This seems to be universally true, no matter the clique.  It is discouraging.  I believe it is an honest product of human nature.  Fwiw, I'm telling you as a neutral observer who accepts you as a well-meaning, self-aware commentor, that your comment seems equally offensive to me as does JesseCW's.

                            I haven't enjoyed a good conversation like this here in a long time.  I appreciate it.  I hope I haven't offended you, just trying to give honest feedback.  I don't claim to always be right.

                            Secrecy is a hot bed of vanity. - Joseph Brodsky They who have put out the people’s eyes reproach them for their blindness. – John Milton 1642

                            by geomoo on Fri Nov 29, 2013 at 05:47:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Not at all: (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            geomoo, Oh Mary Oh

                            It's the best conversation I've had around here in a while too. It seems like every time I've commented lately - no matter how mild the wording or innocuous the topic - someone has wanted to pick a fight. It gets old. And you're right: the discourse did get considerably nastier around here after 2008.

                            I'm guessing from your ID# that you came here sometime around 2007. Wish you had been here in the mid-2000s, when we argued with each other AND had fun. You would have fit right in.

                            See you around.

                      •  Here's the thing ... (0+ / 0-)
                        even though I sense that you have some disdain for my approach
                        People can disagree with some or all of a position without feeling disdain for it. So it may be disagreement with some or all of your position that you are sensing.

                        The low bandwidth nature of text discussion is one reason that increasing the emotional charge and engaging in polarization are so effective in disrupting the solidarity that a site like dkos is in danger of engendering in pursuit of challenges like breaking the grip on power of the climate suicide pact. These are longstanding tactics in disrupting solidarity, but they have been found to be especially effective in disrupting solidarity in blogs such as this.

                        Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

                        by BruceMcF on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 10:58:11 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Well, there may be some confusion about (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  how I use the "1" comment. I only use it for things close to hide ratable but not over the line, so in practice it gets used for insults mostly. I don't use it much: 13 times in the past two months. I used it for an insult directed at Deadhead and another at Ted Rall. I used it several times for vermin references.

                  I never use it just for scatalogical/profane/obscene language. I don't use it for disagreements.

                  I am actually rather surprised that something used a couple of times a week against insults can generate so much warmth. I find it very hard to believe that this small practice of mine has any effect on the overall tone of a place as large as Daily Kos.

                  It's not intended to be a slap with a ruler - trust me, I can deliver those and once in a rare while I do. The "1" is more along the lines of an internet equivalent of the quick look and raised eyebrow across the table that conveys, "Dude! Listen to yourself. Do you really mean that?"

                  Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

                  by Wee Mama on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 06:46:10 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

      •  It might have something to do with this: (0+ / 0-)
        Ideally such engagements should be within marriages only
        If you meant sex and not just prostitutuion, yes, that statement hurts and stings to anyone here gay, bi etc.

        This is the exact arguement conservatives use for opposing gay rights as a whole, and given only in 16 states can gay couples coupualte under legal terms of marriage, this is kind of an offensive thing to say. Even as a prude, you should not profess "abstinence only"  view on a "left-leaning" (I often can't say that with a straight face) for a myriad of reason, not the least of which is alot of people who might want to be married can't be, and still have sex.

    •  I wouldn't go that far. (0+ / 0-)

      Especially since I don't much like this horrible system of moderation that Kos keeps coming up with when I guess he's needs to pay for full-time moderators.

      Though I could see how you'd might want to think this way, and I see not too many people coaught on or aren't exactly as "progressive" a sthey seem to think they are on the issue of gay rights and marriage.

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site