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View Diary: TPP Defenders Deliver Official Talking Points; Inadvertently Confirm Opponents' Worst Fears (33 comments)

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  •  yep. what TPP does is apply the same ole rules (1+ / 0-)
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    Stude Dude

    to the pacific region. The same rules are already in effect in most of the rest of the world.

    That does NOT mean that TPP is hunky-dory----it is not. It is antidemocratic and destroys national sovereignty, just as all the OTHER agreements do.

    But it does mean that "stopping TPP!!!" won't accomplish much--the very same rules will still remain in effect everywhere else, and even the Pacific region is already covered by the WTO treaty, which is just as undemocratic and crushes national sovereignty.

    The time to fight this was 20 years ago when it was first being introduced.  We did.  We lost.

    Fighting it now is like the goppers trying to repeal Social Security. It may make them feel good, but they don't have a snowball's chance in hell.

    My view is that since WTO and the regional FTAs are there and are not going away, we force our way into them, win the power to help write the rules, then use them as our ownj weapon by inserting international and global safeguards on worker rights, minimujm wages, workplace safety, environmental regulations, etc etc etc. This effort is called the "Fair Trade" movement.

    Alas, the Fair Trade movement is crippled by the fact that so many people who oppose the free trade movement don't understand what TPP is and what it actually does, and are still stuck in the old "national opposition" framework that the FTAs and WTO have already destroyed 20 years ago. The corproate trade network is now global. It cannot be beaten within any one country, nmot even the big bad USD of A.  It must be defeated globally, everywhere all at once.

    This isn't the 1980's anymore.

    In the end, reality always wins.

    by Lenny Flank on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 05:04:43 PM PST

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    •  Sovereignty (0+ / 0-)

      I've never been so concerned about the sovereignty aspects of trade agreements.  I'm one of those wooly one worlders who really likes it when countries get together and hammer out rules and codes of conduct on how to treat each other, rather than pursuing their narrow self interest at the expense of other countries, which just ends up making everyone worse off.

      I like your approach to trade and using existing institutions to improve the rules.  However, I'm wary about including things like worker rights and safety and environmental regulations in trade agreements.  I'm all for them, but they're different from other trade rules.  For labor and environment, most countries already have legislation, but don't necessarily have the capacity to enforce rules the way we do.  I'd feel much more comfortable handling those issues in UN organizations that already address them, and including boatloads of aid to help developing countries to meet common labor and environmental goals.

      In the meantime, you've already been fairly successful, and labor and environmental chapters are now standard practice in most developed country FTAs.  They're not perfect, but they give a forum to discuss those issues and provide that aid to countries that need it.  It's a lot better than trying to tear down the whole system, which would leave you with nothing.

      Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

      by Sky Net on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 06:00:22 PM PST

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      •  me neither (0+ / 0-)

        Nations are one of humanity's sillier inventions.  How idiotic to assume that people on this side of an imaginary line in the dirt are better or worse than the people on that side.

        But in any case it no longer matters.  Whether we like it or not, "nations" are utterly irrelevant now. The corporations are now global--they are bigger,richer, more powerful and have more direct control over more people's lives than any mere "nation".

        For labor and environment, most countries already have legislation, but don't necessarily have the capacity to enforce rules the way we do.  I'd feel much more comfortable handling those issues in UN organizations that already address them, and including boatloads of aid to help developing countries to meet common labor and environmental goals.
        The inability (or unwillingness) of small nations to enforce such laws is precisely why their enforcement needs to be international.

        I have no objection to UN enforcement. The UN will inevitably grow into an international government anyway.  "Nations" are already economically irrelevant--it is just a matter of time until they are politically irrelevant too.

        The real fight will be to make that international global government a DEMOCRATIC one, and not just one dominated by the multinationals.

        In the end, reality always wins.

        by Lenny Flank on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 06:12:01 PM PST

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        •  Nations aren't irrelevant (1+ / 0-)
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          Don midwest

          They're always going to have the power to write and enforce laws, and collect revenue.  They also have this little thing called militaries.  Corporations don't have any of that.  If they don't make a decent product they go out of business and cease to exist.  Nations, even poorly run ones, rarely do that.  Corporations have big lobbying arms for that exact reason, they know that governments have power and aren't necessarily going to use it in their interests.

          Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

          by Sky Net on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 07:02:28 PM PST

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          •  even that line is being blurred (1+ / 0-)
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            Nattiq

            China can be viewed as one giant corporation with an army. Indeed, the Chinese People's Liberation Army is itself a corporation, since it owns many industries.

            In the end, reality always wins.

            by Lenny Flank on Sat Nov 30, 2013 at 08:01:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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