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  •  You have done little but praise the neoliberalism (5+ / 0-)

    eating these people up.

    Trust, but verify. - Reagan
    Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

    When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

    by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 01:53:44 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  What you don't know about what I've done (11+ / 0-)

      I could just about squeeze into the Grand fucking Canyon.

      Don't even pretend to know jack shit about me -- hell, even to know jack shit about my history on this site.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 01:57:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I guess your voluminous comments are not (7+ / 0-)

        indicative of what you think and how you feel?

        I mean, when you routinely crap in Ray Pensador's diary, that someone hijacking your account?

        Despite what you write, you're rearing to take on Wall St. AND the fossil fuel industry???

        Go figure.

        You're right. I guess I don't know.

        Trust, but verify. - Reagan
        Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

        When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

        by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 02:29:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Oh... (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Smoh, kkkkate, askew

          so this is about the fact that I find Ray Pensador to be a self-aggrandizing, intentionally divisive, exceptionally poor advocate for the disenfranchised in our country (and other countries, in fact).

          Well, guilty as charged there.

          Of course nothing I've said to Ray Pensador has remotely been in defense of any of the Wall Street bad actors (nor the other big money bad actors like the Koch brothers or Sheldon Adelson). Mostly because I wouldn't defend them unless held at gunpoint and forced to do so.

          I strongly suspect that the number of Kossacks on any side of the "rox/sux" wars who would do so could be counted on one hand.

          While wearing mittens.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 02:36:23 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  But you still are (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            angel d, priceman, lostinamerica, JayRaye

            strong supporter of neoliberalism, and of course there's nothing destructive or divisive about that.

            Trust, but verify. - Reagan
            Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

            When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

            by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 03:01:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The more you say that (8+ / 0-)

              the more I'm coming to the conclusion you don't have a clue what neoliberalism is.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 03:13:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Um, that's weird. (4+ / 0-)

                Since turbo-neoliberalism IS the economic model that has been embraced whole-heartedly first by Reagan and the trickle-down voodoo economists and then by the Third Way, the entire timeframe in which the people you care so much about have been drowning ever deeper in the pool.

                You know, tax cuts and loopholes, austerity, corporate welfare, weak regulation (laissez-faire), weak legal enforcement, the virtue of "free" markets, the "economy" (for the 1-10%) uber als. Ya-da-ya-da.

                But keep going with that if it's helping you feel like you're doing well.

                Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 04:40:38 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  So you are defining neoliberalism (5+ / 0-)

                  by using a bunch of buzzwords and catch phrases.

                  You gotta understand what neoliberalism is to be against it. Otherwise you're just parroting talking points.

                  Neoliberalism is a dead-end economic policy. But it's becoming clear you don't understand why.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 04:43:36 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wtf? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JayRaye

                    You're expecting a dissertation?

                    It is a dead-end policy, yet the administration and the mainstream, establishment culture support it and you support the administration and there's not much you'd be willing to try do about it.

                    Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                    Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                    When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                    by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 04:56:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Pop quiz: (0+ / 0-)

                      Privatizing Social Security:

                      A) Neoliberal and the President supports it;
                      B) Neoliberal and the President opposes it;
                      C) Not neoliberal and the President supports it;
                      D) Not neoliberal and the President opposes it.

                      Same question about the ACA.

                      Same question about Lily Ledbetter.

                      Same question about the stimulus.

                      Same question about the ENDA.

                      Same question about expanding Medicaid (okay, that's a subset of the ACA).

                      We can keep going.

                      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                      by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 05:48:33 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Pop quiz. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        aliasalias

                        Chained CPI: neolioberal-oriented, "shared sacrifice" benefit cut for the vulnerable or not?

                        Obama solution widely defended by his supporters or not?

                        We can keep going.

                        Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                        Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                        When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                        by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:40:42 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

              •  I'm curious to know what you think it is. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Smoh, JayRaye

                Not being snide here. Genuinely curious to know how you would define "neoliberalism." Feel free to pass, of course, since this was not my conversation.

                "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                by Kombema on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 04:45:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't want to give Words in Action (0+ / 0-)

                  an easy out by defining it for him or I'd be happy to; however suffice it to say I'm (generally speaking) a Keynesian, not a disciple of Friedman nor Hayek.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 04:47:46 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, FWIW, neoliberalism does not have to reach (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Words In Action, JayRaye, aliasalias

                    the levels of Hayek or Friedman to still exist. But I think where WIA is going with it is to say that the president is a neoliberal, and that if you are an unabashed supporter of him that you must be too. I'm assuming your disagreement is with the conditional first element?

                    "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                    by Kombema on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 04:51:31 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Ha! (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    JayRaye

                    Nice treatise on the subject: three names.

                    Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                    Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                    When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                    by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 04:57:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Your buzzword bingo (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Diogenes2008, askew

                      was much more exciting, true. But I'm holding back just to deny you the escape hatch.

                      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                      by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 05:11:15 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Yes. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        JayRaye

                        That's it. ;^)

                        Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                        Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                        When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                        by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 05:14:35 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So what's neoliberalism? (0+ / 0-)

                          Still waiting.

                          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                          by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 05:47:01 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  If you can't get enough out of the brief (0+ / 0-)

                            listing of its tenets, then you're just being difficult, which of course you are. I owe you nothing.

                            We both know what neoliberalism is, and we know that you have expressed enough support of it and the fraudulent, elitist meritocratic lies upon which it is built to demonstrate that your concern for the vulnerable is limited, because neoliberal capitalism today as embraced by this administration that you support and the capitalism you support has a disproportionate impact on that vulnerable population. Nothing will change that but broad sweeping reform beginning with the distribution of income in the first place.

                            Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                            Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                            When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                            by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 05:55:35 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You didn't describe its tenets. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Diogenes2008

                            You said a lot of buzzwords. Not all of which are actual tenets of neoliberalism.

                            Austerity, for example, is not a tenet of neoliberalism. It's a very bad economic plan, and not incompatible with neoliberalism, but it's not inherently neoliberal.

                            Trickle-down economics -- also not neoliberal. Also not incompatible, but not inherently neoliberal.

                            Corporate welfare, actually, is directly against neoliberalism. It's also a terrible economic model, but not neoliberal.

                            Tax cuts, laissez-faire regulation and enforcement, and so-called "Free Markets" are all definitely neoliberal.

                            Like I said, you really don't know what it is.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 06:01:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually I'm going to make one correction: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Diogenes2008

                            Austerity can, actually, be described as a tenet of neoliberalism. I'll give you that one.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 06:05:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ooops. This comment wasn't up while I was (0+ / 0-)

                            writing the response to its parent.

                            Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                            Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                            When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                            by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 06:16:41 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's OK. (0+ / 0-)

                            My mistake.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 06:22:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Austerity is absolutely (0+ / 0-)

                            a tenet of modern neoliberalism. "Sharing the responsibility" is just another way of creating the concentrations of wealth, for, you know, investment purposes that create jobs for everyone (as if there's a direct correlation and no more efficient way of creating jobs).

                            It's another facet, like tax cuts for the rich, which also supports concentration of wealth. And de-regulation, which support consolidation and concentration of market forces.

                            All of these are related in Neoliberal Reaganomics which the Third Way and Obama have embraced. Sure they ostensibly "support" a bit more regulation, except in trade agreements such as NAFTA and TPP, etc., as well as regulatory enforcement. But where the rubber meets the road, the wealth continues to be sucked from the bottom and concentrated at the top.

                            Neoliberalism also puts responsibility to the shareholder out front so that all other considerations may be conveniently ignored for the benefit of producing the profits that concentrate wealth...

                            Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                            Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                            When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                            by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 06:15:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Now we're getting somewhere. (0+ / 0-)

                            Skipping the austerity part which we've covered above, deregulation and tax cuts (not just for the rich, but for everyone) are tenets of neoliberalism.

                            Now here's a big one: Do you understand that in its modern usage, neoliberalism is a pejorative only? Nobody claims to adhere to neoliberalism in the modern sense of the term. Like "political correctness" it's a term defined by its opposition. This makes its usage particularly hairy.

                            Barack Obama has a very large number of economic measures he supports. Some of them can fall under the rubric of Friedman/Hayek economics and those are (TPP most currently and especially) universally bad ideas. Many many others - the stimulus, the GM bailout, the recent suit against Goldman Sachs, the entirety of the ACA, the push to raise taxes as part of a budget deal -- these are all directly in opposition to any reasonable interpretation of neoliberalism.

                            It's why I fundamentally reject this "Barack Obama is a neoliberal" folderol. And why I will support the ACA, and oppose the TPP, and get called an Obamabot by binary thinkers.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 06:46:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, I know it's used as a pejorative, (0+ / 0-)

                            especially within the Democratic wing of the Democratic Party. The opposition.

                            The net-net of his actions has been neoliberal results. The size and structure of the stimulus were heavily influenced by neoliberal ideas, and therefore much more limited in its effect.  

                            His actions vis-a-vis Wall St. have all been too little too late, well-exposed by both Holder and his underling (name escapes me at the moment) as being deliberate and for reasons having nothing to do with justice or serving the rest of us who need a legitimate Wall St.

                            TPP is not just bad it is catastrophically horrible in a way that every Democrat with a shred of intellectual honesty ought to be out vehemently opposing and protesting.

                            ACA would not be non-neoliberal but much more effective for beneficiaries and society as a whole if it was a path to the exsiting MediCare programs.

                            I support ACA as a better than not alternative, but it is the neoliberal approach to the problem, and it made the whole thing much more complicated and less effective for cost-cutting to boot.

                            From start to finish on economic matters it has been clear that Obama has placed the neoliberal establishment at the head and all around the bargaining table, which is reflected in all of his economic appointments, the lobbyists and other vested interests with whom he deigns to meet, and the center to center-right position with which he begins every "negotiation."

                            Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                            Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                            When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                            by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:29:38 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  quoth: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jdsnebraska

                            "I support ACA as a better than not alternative, but it is the neoliberal approach to the problem, and it made the whole thing much more complicated and less effective for cost-cutting to boot."

                            Utterly,absolutely, wrong, wrong, wrong. Adding regulation, expanding Medicaid, and giving subsidies to low-income consumers are the opposite of neoliberalism.

                            This is why you claim the "net-net" of his actions are neoliberal. Because you fundamentally mischaracterize actions which are not neoliberal but which you may (correctly or not) perceive as half-measures or just not like as neoliberal -- a very common pitfall with terms that are solely pejorative.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 07:39:05 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ACA being the neoliberal (0+ / 0-)

                            solution that supports prefers private sector solutions to public problems...

                            As if the private sector hasn't had ample time to demonstrate it can be trusted with healthcare.

                            Exapnding existing and Medicare and Medicaid programs would have been technically much simpler and smoother and, since they have 3% overhead and private insurance 20%--and that only because of the new limit, more cost effective.

                            Other countries solved this long ago because they had no illusions about the private sector, particular in such affairs as health.

                            Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                            Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                            When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                            by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:31:53 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Medicaid WAS expanded. (0+ / 0-)

                            Jebus. Look. I'm done. You've shown me the depth of your ignorance, and your divorce from fact or even from being corrected when the lie is put to your claims.

                            I'm done. Go have the last word, construct another strawman, whatever fanciful imaginations you can concoct to support your delusions. I'm out.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:36:17 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I know that. (0+ / 0-)

                            You brought Medicaid into the tent.

                            I said expanding Medicare and then, after you raised Medicaid, I said that expanding the two combined would have solved the problem far better...

                            Nice try, though.

                            Trust, but verify. - Reagan
                            Vote, but Occupy. - commonmass

                            When the rich have tripled their share of the income and wealth yet again, Republicans will still blame the poor and 3rd Way Democrats will still negotiate.

                            by Words In Action on Mon Dec 02, 2013 at 08:39:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

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