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View Diary: Winning arguments at DailyKos.com (220 comments)

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  •  You can also just avoid the stupid arguments (19+ / 0-)

    I try to most of the time. Too many personal grudges around here that overshadow everything else.

    And the political correctness goes way too far, IMO.

    Mostly I just see two factions poking each other with sticks rather than arguing. And by sticks I mean ratings, and by arguing I mean typing ferociously, like it's going to save the whole of the Democratic Party and/or the United States.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:40:10 AM PST

    •  Be careful with "political correctness" (19+ / 0-)

      It's one of the "hot button" terms as mentioned above.  

      "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

      by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 07:41:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  And to add to that (10+ / 0-)

      Many times when the swinging of sticks is going on it turns out particular commenters have this like massive extensive history of disagreement/blah blah with one another so half the time I have no idea what the inside references are in the comments.

      After there are a gazillion comments on a hot button thread I figure whatever I am thinking has already been said or it will get lost in the shuffle. I am very guilty of rubber necking/lurking in these situations trying to figure out what the actual argument is about.

      •  I tried to respond to this and comment (0+ / 0-)

        disappeared. Weird.

        I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:13:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  sometimes, calico, (4+ / 0-)

        it's about nothing more than standing up for someone who is being insulted beyond belief.  questioning their mental health sort of insults.  i would think in those cases nothing... to the insulted at least... gets lost in the shuffle.   i would imagine every ounce of support is welcome.

        "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

        by kj in missouri on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:50:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  No, you can't (25+ / 0-)

      You can try to stay out of it, and choose how much time you'd like to invest in observing it (like maybe no time at all after it's been raging for a week) but even if you do that, people will force you into their stupid fights by over running your diaries with it against your wishes.  

      In fact, you can even delete your diary because people have trashed the comment threads, and then republish it with a note about why you did it, and the same people can come in and trash it again, deliberately and taunt you, saying now you'll have to delete it again, with no push back or sanction from the lovely moderation at dkos.

      That's a fact.  


      "Justice is a commodity"

      by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:28:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  See, it may be a fact for you and your time here (5+ / 0-)

        But it's not a fact for me. I do stay out of most of the pie fights and believe me, plenty of people on both sides have attempted to drag me into them.

        I walk away. I'm not invested in making enemies here, so I haven't made many.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:43:07 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Well, I guess that's true (12+ / 0-)

          but that's an odd statement.  I'm not invested in making enemies here either, if that's what you are implying.  

          But the fact that it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it's not a tactic that people who are determined to disrupt and distract and drag more people into their shit use.

          If you're just here to chat and never debate, etc., you can avoid being targeted. But if you have criticisms, making enemies is completely unavoidable.


          "Justice is a commodity"

          by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:24:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I wasn't at all implying that that is what you're (7+ / 0-)

            here for.

            This is just how I spend my time here. I have plenty of criticism and a touch of praise for current policies, etc. But I don't allow myself to get dragged into a pie fight. I'll argue for the things I believe in but when it crosses the line into ad homs and old personal grudges, I walk away.

            As for that tactic.... Yes, I have seen it plenty of times, but what I also see is both factions only acknowledging it when it's the other side that does it. The reality is that both "sides" do it.

            Both sides wallow in the mud while claiming only the others are throwing it.

            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

            by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:33:23 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sometimes (7+ / 0-)

              getting dragged into a fight can come when you least expect it. And once it erupts, it is very hard to escape from with any semblance of having been able to get your side of the story told without it being completely overrun by the tide of sneering ignorance. And sometimes, it is very personal, and very hard to ignore.

              Is it worth it? Hard to say. But it certainly can cost a price. What do you do when being called mentally ill for caring about an issue. Ignore it? Walk away?

              Even the most sainted person here has not been able to get pulled into the drama, and each side accuses the other of being the instigate.

              What I have seen here lately is very disturbing. I've seen such viciousness among people I'd thought of as friends that I'm having to review my understanding of the entire dynamics here. We all can be blind to our own side of a debate, to such an extent, that any of us can become smug assholes without as much as a clue we've descended into behaving like all those we oppose.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:12:35 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Edit: (4+ / 0-)

                Even the most sainted person here has not been able to [refrain from] getting pulled into the drama

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:15:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Everyone -- (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                corvo, TheMomCat, shaharazade, CroneWit

                What would "not participating in DailyKos.com" do for your daily routines?  Therapy is not therapeutic if it hurts too much.

                "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

                by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:21:45 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  So, this is therapy for you? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  churchylafemme, AnnetteK, Eyesbright

                  I don't understand the allusion to therapy, unless you're here for that purpose, or have some notion that coming here for that purpose is such a common motivation that you could direct that comment to "everyone".

                  Who comes here for therapy? Care to elaborate?

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:29:39 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  I know what you're saying (10+ / 0-)

                And I used to get sucked in to the same things here. I no longer care about getting my side of the story out there. Speaking of mentally ill, I am mentally ill yet have been attacked for being insensitive to the mentally ill, or for supposedly not acknowledging the stigma attached to it.

                Just last night an idiot told me I didn't know what I was talking about re Amazon.com- that they don't make mistakes or screw ups. I worked with Amazon in a professional capacity for years and know exactly how much they can screw up.

                Years ago I would have fought it out. I used to love setting fire to every straw man that was hurled in my direction.

                But I don't care anymore. It's not worth it to me. There are too many hard feelings on all sides and I don't want to get dragged in to any of it or play any role at all in the drama.

                I do follow some of the fights and I know how contentious it is. But I also lost a lot of respect for several members here that I used to have a great deal of respect for. And there are people on both sides that that applies to.

                I used to call my "friends" out on their behavior even when I agreed with them, now I don't even bother.

                I am not here to fight. I'm not here to burn bridges. It is hard for me to walk away from a fight but it's harder to lose friends over a stubborn fight on the internet.

                P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:35:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thank you for the thoughtful response (5+ / 0-)

                  And I may very well follow in your footsteps. I think the gravitational pull of group-think, stemming from a strong human trait of conforming to one's social milieu in order to survive, leads people to overlook the behavior of their peers. One simply becomes blinded to it.

                  I used to call my "friends" out on their behavior even when I agreed with them, now I don't even bother.
                  I've long observed that conformity is the price of admittance to many groups, and certain nonconforming behaviors can lead to immediate expulsion. The group psychology that leads to expecting conformity is perhaps a survival trait which evolved in our hunter-gatherer past, to keep group efficiency and cohesiveness together, forming a stronger bond in order to survive. And thus, individuals who strayed from group-think may have, in the distant past of our species, threatened the group's survival, and the group's instinct is to rid itself of the individual so as to prevent the disruption of the group's ability to function.

                  And so, in modern times, ideas which don't conform are seen as betrayals and  threats, even when they really aren't. The instinct kicks in to attack the non-conformist, and resort to shunning, making the offender an outlaw or outsider.

                  I've seen this several times in my life with group behavior. It's the Lord of the Flies response that can become so ugly and vicious.

                  Maybe we need a group for outsiders who have that in common as a social trait, the nonconformist gene, as it were... but that would probably backfire too.

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:23:09 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I suppose I don't experience that here (7+ / 0-)

                    because I don't have a "group" per se. The roxxers can sometimes rightfully claim me and the suxxers can also rightfully claim me at other times.

                    If anything, I think I am part of the LGBT group, but that is also diverse and not easily split between the two dominant factions here.

                    I am political and I have strong opinions, but as far as this website goes, I'm mostly just a storyteller when I write, and a listener when I read. Most of my disagreement is expressed in snark, while my agreement tends to lead me to more thoughtful places.

                    I think I'm the only person on this site who was just as happy to see blackwaterdog leave as I was to see slinkerwink be (temporarily) banned. It wasn't anything personal, but at the time they were both singing the same song, just mixing up the timing and harmony.

                    I don't take claims of persecution on this site seriously. I just don't. This site is what we make of it. Not as a group but as individuals. I get what I want out of it and ignore the rest. It's all just noise, and I'd prefer to write my own song rather than contribute to the messy percussion section of another person's grudge.

                    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                    by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:38:38 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  For what its worth (5+ / 0-)

                      Your independence, and the way you express it, which is not exactly pulling punches, is something I've gotten an enormous kick out of, even if I'm sometimes taking the brunt of it.

                      You are very cool. I've often been completely impressed by how you express yourself here.

                      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                      by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:15:52 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  I'm thinking if you're not a diarist (8+ / 0-)

            but primarily a commenter, it's a lot easier to do.

            If you write diaries, you're painting a big target on your back--if you hold views a certain cadre of people doesn't like.

            I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:14:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I wish it had been that simple, Joane (8+ / 0-)

        First, before I continue, I want to clearly state you brought this up here in this diary. When something is alluded to, especially when framed inaccurately, it should be within bounds to respond.

        In The Evening Blues, a person referenced a thread with links, mocking the responses to her "one liner."

        I responded to that, since I had been the one in that linked thread. Let's just say my response wasn't appreciated. It was the ugliest, personally caustic, and hurtful exchange I've ever had here, because it came from people I'd thought of as friends. Now that I'm officially branded as being one of "them", this gave me an opportunity to see how "the other side" feels when we have disagreements. It isn't fun for either side, and both are doing the same thing, while thinking it isn't their fault.

        How can I break this to people: Everyone here has feelings, everyone has important issues they want to discuss, everyone wants to make their case strongly, and everyone wants to do it with as little push-back as possible.

        So, it seems apparent that perhaps what you're asking for is a safe zone where people can taunt their former friends, or their political adversaries, or whomever they wish, and be insulated from dissenting views.

        You want the space to make strident, strong, forceful comments, but don't want the same in return.

        Both sides do this. Both sides want the same thing: To be able to make their case as strongly as possible (think of Priceman's diaries, or laescapee's) and want admin to keep out the dissenting side so that they can freely rip into an issue without the interference of opposing views.

        Each side frames itself as innocent angels, as if their motivations so heroic and on the side of good that they are shocked when someone questions that framing by actually criticizing their point of view. Each side accuses the other of the same offense.

        And as to the "stupid" pie fights, I recall that all sides here have indulged in them, all sides wear the former slings and arrows as battle scars, all sides think their end of the pie fight to be righteous, and all sides think the other side to be "stupid" (to quote you).

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:42:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  This just ridiculous (9+ / 0-)

          I've never attacked you or slighted you or done any harm to you in any way. Neither has anyone in Evening Blues.  You were quite insistent in baiting and instigating. The proof is all laid out for anyone to see.  This tripe about your friends attacking you is just that, tripe.  You climbed up on a cross, anticipating that you'd be attacked for taking a position that you claimed others opposed because they were such racists.  But the fact of the matter is that it was a complete fabrication, and nobody attacked you. So you went and attacked your friends, to create the kind of nasty situation that you were claiming was happening.

          I don't know what your goal is, Zhen. Whatever it is, good luck. But do us a favor please. For those of us who really don't want to be involved, just leave us the fuck out of it, okay?  Carry on but do it somewhere else.  We put a lot of work into the diary series and it's just not right when we try to keep the comment sections free of the kind of crap that you and other brought in and then even after a diary was removed, deleted, hoping that you and your mortal enemies would take your crusade and your battles somewhere else, even that wasn't enough for you to get it through your head that we're just not interested in fighting you.  Nobody hates you. Nobody is kept up at night thinking of ways to attack poor Zhen.  We're fucking sick and tired of the drama and the crusades.

          It's as simple as that.

          Seriously, go write your own diaries to carry out your drama.   And stop trying to drag your friends into it or trying to prove that you're being "pummeled" when that is complete fiction. You went around from one person to another with your nasty comments trying to get them to fight with you and you failed. Nobody wants to fight with you, Zhen. Nobody hates you. Nobody is attacking you.  Please, adjust your thoughts accordingly, okay? We wish you well and always have.  

          That's all I have to say.


          "Justice is a commodity"

          by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:07:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  One of Zhen Ren's comments was a top comment. (6+ / 0-)

            It was then made into a diary because people felt it was so moving and so well expressed. The comment was about how she felt, and how much hurt was there. I think you are on the wrong side of this as you apparently won't acknowledge the amount of pain that Zhen Ren and others have experienced. Your comment completely belies your supposed offer of peace. It amounts to "go away and shut up," because I am "fucking sick of the drama and the crusade" when Zhen Ren and others try to tell me they were hurt.
                I am appalled and, for the first time, angry. You have no right to belittle someone elses' feelings this way. It's blatantly obvious that you don't wish Zhen Ren well, or those of us who feel with her well. Rather, you'd try to bully us into silence so you don't have to be reminded of the consequences of your actions. As long as your cohort continues to post diaries bringing the subject up again, to whine about those consequences and make the same old arguments, we will not be silenced.

            •  kkkate (8+ / 0-)

              I don't know who you are or why you've replied to me. It also feels kind of surreal talking with someone with "kkk" in their chosen username, given the subject this whole thing is centered around.  But... whatever.

              I don't think you have any idea what situation I am referring to. I supported that comment that was turned into a diary. So please, don't turn this conversation into something that it's not.  

              I am encouraging you, Zhen and anyone who wants to to carry on the conversations, just not to pick fights in community diaries that people put a lot of work into, and these are diaries where, for more than a year, we have endeavored to keep the pie fights out of them.   Anyone who is familiar with these community diaries knows that.  

              I don't know who the "us" that you are referring to is.  I encourage you to carry on your conversation and whatever work it is that you are doing.  But what I am railing against is deliberately dragging people into things that they don't want to be dragged into, and lying about the situation, pretending to be attacked by friends who are not and have never attacked Zhen. That is what occurred.  I object to it.  I have a right to object to it.  

              Zhen fabricated a situation where he was under attack by a group of friends and then he lamented it to the world in very dramatic ways, using martyr-like words.  But it was fiction.   The problem was that the particular friends he said were attacking him were doing nothing of the kind.  So he went into a community diary among a group of people who really did not want to participate in the latest outrage and pie fight, and he attacked his friends.  Not only that, he wouldn't stop attacking his friends.   He seemed determined to create the situation that he was telling the dkos world was happening.  Hell, nobody was even talking about it in private that I know of, other than a sparse number of "wtf is happening?" comments, some "hell if I know" answers, and that was it.  People are busy, extra busy in the holiday season, have meatspace lives, are immersed in other subjects, and just not interested in the latest total trainwreck on DailyKos let alone happy about being dragged into it.  Shocking! I know.  

              Also, I have a long history here of supporting and encouraging dissent.  Your accusations otherwise are absurd and have absolutely no basis in fact.

              Be outraged all you want.  Just keep it out of community diaries where it has been made very clear that it is not welcome.  You know, those community diaries where, when a group of mortal enemies start flinging shit all over the place and the author sees it and says he's not willing to host this crap, he deletes the diary,  reposts the content because one hell of a lot of work went into it and there are some people who are interested in referring back to it on the weekends after a long week of work where they don't have the time to read it in real time.  The author made it clear why he took this action and very shortly afterward, the pie fight crusaders, having been deprived of their latest venue, came marching back in to the newly posted diary, taunting the author saying maybe he'd have to delete this one too.
              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              That's abusive and against every rule at dkos, especially Markos' revered "don't be a dick" rule. It doesn't get more dickish than that.  But Zhen supported that and strutted right in and proceeded to try to trash yet another diary (this would be the THIRD Evening Blues diary he brought his crap into and taunted and insulted the people he claimed were friends who were attacking him when he was the attacker.  Yes, I know it's bizarre.  But those are the facts.

              There are large numbers of places where you can do this if you really want to. Knock yourselves out.  And you always have the option of creating your own space. You can write as many diaries as you want. There is no limit. The same goes for the people who share your pie fighting obsession.

              Have a nice day :)  I'm hoping that kos reviews this.


              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:38:50 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  I realized you might respond this way (6+ / 0-)
            For those of us who really don't want to be involved, just leave us the fuck out of it, okay?  
            Which is why I first established that you brought this into the thread today. So, I didn't draw you into this, you drew yourself into it by stating this:
            You can try to stay out of it, and choose how much time you'd like to invest in observing it (like maybe no time at all after it's been raging for a week) but even if you do that, people will force you into their stupid fights by over running your diaries with it against your wishes.  

            In fact, you can even delete your diary because people have trashed the comment threads, and then republish it with a note about why you did it, and the same people can come in and trash it again, deliberately and taunt you, saying now you'll have to delete it again, with no push back or sanction from the lovely moderation at dkos.

            I won't link to the thread that started all of this, but I stand by what I said: I responded to a comment in the Ev. Blues which another person made, to set the record straight about my perspective. I think that is allowed here. And my response was quite late, in a forgotten inactive thread, but that same individual I responded to then chose to make another allusion to that thread in the E. Blues the next day, thereby drawing attention to the dead thread that hardly any had even seen.

            It could have all died in that old thread, but it was brought into the forefront by her comment.

            I responded to that, and anyone can see how ugly it got. So it wasn't me "overrunning" people's diaries, but rather people commenting in mocking tones regarding my participation.

            I also received several rather insulting kosmails, and of course that clued me in to what sort of chatter was going on in at least the minds of some.

            As to the diary being deleted, and then someone going in the diary when it was republished, that could have been avoided, but for the hide rates that ensued. I am certainly not perfect, but I didn't initiate those comments which were made in the Evening Blues. But when people comment, as was again done here in this diary, and in those comments allude to the actions of others, then I think those others should be able to respond.

            And as to my fabrication of attacks, as you allege, anyone can see, if they can find the thread, how that discussion went. It wasn't pretty. Context means everything here. And the larger context, in part, is I had no idea friends would respond to me the way they did. I had some idea I might be accorded a bit more tolerance, since I thought I was in relatively "safe" territory. That caught me by surprise. In fact, the entire response to my various comments regarding the dehumanizing pictures of blacks caught me entirely off guard. I did not realize the degree to which people still harbored such painful wounds over the racial divide that occurred here years ago.

            I stepped into a hornet's nest, and this time the hornets were my friends.

            So, no, this isn't about some "goal" or agenda I have. This isn't some devious game I'm playing, or some horrible machinations I've thought up. If I am guilty of anything, it is having strong opinions about how minority races are treated, and not having set the record straight a long time ago about where I stood. I tried a few times, but no one noticed. And I am also guilty of being stunned at the way people with whom I've generally found agreement respond to issues of race. I noticed right away the way people stopped being friendly, stopped reccing my comments, making me feel as if I'd become persona-non-grata among my own friends. Yeah, I noticed.

            I felt so stunned I wanted to delete my account. I tried with a GBCW diary. I wanted closure. People mistook my intent entirely, and thought I was leaving for reasons completely opposite to my actual intentions. It was surreal. So I added my rant to the diary. And then later deleted it.  I got emails from people who thought they were siding with me, only for them to later realize I was not with them on this issue of the depictions. they were blindsided by my real position, and the whole thing became theater of the absurd.

            And then the little snide comments began to creep in here and there, in reference to me and my perspective.

            So, I answered it. That's the long and short of it. I noticed who defended me, who did not, who allowed me to be thrown under the bus with nary a word in response.

            I've learned something about people in the last several days, something I'm naive about, and I need to learn that I have a choice: I can conform to a group substantially enough to be accepted, or I can fly solo. Some issues are less crucially divisive. But it seems race isn't one of those areas where people will be forgiven for not conforming. Its as if people side one way or the other on dkos, and there is no room for nuance and complexity in perspective.

            I may write something about this if I find the time. I work all the time, and usually when I write here it is late at night, but otherwise, I'm playing hooky from work at my own expense. So I don't have a lot of time, and I'm a slow writer... I need time to allow my mind to work. So this is hard for me to do.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:11:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  And yet, here you are again. n/t (11+ / 0-)

               

              What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Warren 2016

              by dkmich on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:34:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  This is a flat out lie (8+ / 0-)

              and a completely dishonest representation of the situation.

              I object to the way you've dragged community diaries into this Zhen, and I have the right to object to it.  I object to your misrepresentation, with a broad brush, of how you've been attacked by your friends.  This is a complete fabrication.  You are the person dragging your friends, unwillingly, into this, and making things up about how you were treated.


              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:41:31 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  it is not a fabrication. (5+ / 0-)
                This is a complete fabrication.
                ~joanneleon

                "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                by kj in missouri on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:45:40 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  My god... (5+ / 0-)

                Joanne, I'm not lying. It is an opinion. Naturally, this will look differently depending on where one sits, but no, it isn't a lie.

                I think most people want to be understood, to get out their side of a story, and I'm no exception.

                I've been exhausted the past week or so, and haven't had the energy to write anything longer, which would have been a better way to approach this debacle. There are some things that need saying.

                But no, I'm not sitting here lying... I know full well what happened. I know how I got the cold shoulder and smug responses at best from my friends, and at worse acerbic vitriol. There have even been posts alleging my concern about race is a form of mental illness.

                NO, it isn't not a lie.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:59:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Zhen, we're war weary (10+ / 0-)

                  and the things you've been saying for days were not represented as an opinion, though I can see why you'd try to back pedal now.

                  Further, I'll speak only for myself but I know there are others who feel this way.  We're war weary.  Just like the country is war weary, so am I with the emotional, time sucking battles here.  I also think that with this particular issue, there is no end to the battles because for some, what's behind it is not what it appears to be. Not for all, but for some.  

                  I've been through this for many iterations.  It plays out nearly the same way every time.  This is not the only place in the universe where issues can be discussed. Some places are better than others to talk about different issues. Some places just have more expertise on certain things, or just a better format or venue.  

                  And as long as I am being specific, I'll tell you what I am angry about.  I'm angry at the way you attacked joe. I know for a fact that he never attacked you, he doesn't hate you, didn't feel any animosity at all. I know how hard he works on the Evening Blues diaries while also holding down a full time job.  The way you went after him and tried many  times, to bait him into fighting with you, all the while making a broad brush claim that your friends were attacking you, was disgraceful.

                  I know joe pretty well now, online and offline.  It would be hard to find a more kind hearted, funny and interesting person than joe.  It would also be hard to find someone who has gone out of his way more to avoid hurts and fights and who has tried to intervene and be as understanding of both sides as he possibly could.  I've witnessed it time and time again. But you insisted on trying to bait him into a fight with your insults and relentless hurtful behavior.  I am really angry about that.  

                  I'm going to stop trying to have a conversation among the people who insist on inserting themselves into this, trying to fuel it further, just for their own entertainment or whatever other motivations they have (I'm not talking about everyone involved in the conversation, just a few, and it should be obvious who I'm referring to).  I'm going to write a diary about it instead.


                  "Justice is a commodity"

                  by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:29:55 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "entertainment" (6+ / 0-)

                    joanneleon, i'll try and make it a point to read your "war weary" diary that expresses your idea that some people consider standing up for the right of other's to speak their own perceptions of life and living as "entertainment."

                    one of the issues i've been engaged in is dismissing one person's attempt to define another person's motivations, political beliefs, or work-on-the-ground via their own lens, and not the person that are attempting to define.   and i've been engaging on-line since 1999 in conservative forums that were no deletions and no bannings boards.  i've had crap thrown at me by conservatives trying to "define" me that would curl the hair of Daily Kos posters.

                    it is such an arrogant misconception that you, or anyone else, think you can divine another's intent that i'm almost at a loss for words to express my disgust that you'd even try.

                    if Zhen is your friend, why don't you buck up your "weariness" and go hiderate the comments that dissed his mental health.   if you're such a strong, principled person... go do that.   no?  don't wanna?   wanna write a diary about what you think is "entertainment" for other people?

                    please. proceed.

                    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                    by kj in missouri on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:44:52 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  and.... i'm out. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Avila

                    "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

                    by kj in missouri on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:45:25 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Sorry, Joanne, but you midunderstood (4+ / 0-)

                    I was not at all backpedaling. I stand by all that I've said. I suppose I could be seen as backpedaling from a straw-man you may have created in place of my arguments. This whole thing became a mess from the outset, probably due to a lot of factors.

                    I'm a very complex, nuanced person. You do not know the entirety of my point of view. You likely never will. Only so much can be communicated in this kind of setting. I'm not a hater. I don't hate Joe, or you, or anyone. If Joe had been a bit less artificial, dismissive, smug, and coldly acerbic in his treatment of me things might have gone differently.

                    And Joe has his own perspective on the depictions, no doubt which had something to do with his response. We're not all talking in a vacuum here. We see the pattern of recs, the comments, etc. We all know each others history.

                    I know that you are friends with Joe offsite. No surprise why you feel strongly in defending him.

                    As to people you're arguing with who have defended me: If not for them, I would have been left out in the cold rain of DKos community. This entire thing is surprising to me, that people I've tended to agree with have disowned me, while people with whom I've never had agreement have treated my with warmth.

                    I got an email from someone accusing them of "love bombing" me. I think that's hogwash. I think they are genuinely empathic people who see someone struggling to come to terms with a situation, and they reached out. And I'm deeply touched, and glad for their support, and all of this has given me a lot to ponder and process for weeks to come.

                    I've got to go work, playing too much hooky. I work almost everyday of my life, including weekends.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:47:42 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He told you (11+ / 0-)

                      numerous times that he was not being disingenuous or smug. If anything, he was warm and welcoming, and trying to keep peace.  He tried to demonstrate that to you, but you had decided you know what he was thinking better than you did, so you kept attacking him and when he wouldn't fight, you went on to try to pick a fight with others.  And all the while you were broad brush smearing your friends, who you claimed were attacking you.

                      It was really, really bizarre.  Personally, I had hoped that you would step back and realize what the reality of the situation was. But you never did, and still haven't. You're still maintaining that something that never happened, did happen, and you keep telling me that you're so busy, but this has been going on relentlessly for a week, as far as I can tell.  

                      I'm pretty sure I'm going to bail out of dkos.  This is by far not the only reason but it's the last straw.  I decided to take today, maybe this week, to decide whether or not I want to continue investing the work into a daily series here, when this kind of crap is most likely going to march its way into my series too.  Maybe you'll open the door and hold it open for people who hate the thing and have wanted to trash it for the last two years.  You can pick the fights in the name of "dissent" against imaginary slights, then pretend you're the victim, then they can swoop in to defend you.  See how that works?   Somehow, after this exchange with you today, I think you'd get a lot of satisfaction out of that.  And I agree with you in this sense -- I really don't know who you are or what your real goals are.  

                      Bascially, I'm just not down with all of that.  I'd rather invest my time in places where these kinds of manipulations, abuses, etc. are not encouraged or used as entertainment or most importantly, used to suck all the oxygen out of the room and to distract from other pressing issues of the day, issues that are inconvenient for the powers that be.  This high drama also divides enormously and at a point in time when the people are waking up, and real, honest to goodness push back is happening against the status quo, when discussions about primary challengers are budding, when coalitions are forming to rein in the surveillance state, when the whole country is saying no to more war, it's a great time to create a huge meta drama that leaves the place in a smoking pile of crap and then to fuel it, day after day.  I'm not going to be a part of that. I'm going to be somewhere else, working with others for real change.


                      "Justice is a commodity"

                      by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:14:40 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Correx (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ek hornbeck, TheMomCat

                        "you had decided you know what he was thinking better than you did"

                        =

                        "you had decided that you knew what he was thinking better than he did"


                        "Justice is a commodity"

                        by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:16:22 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Well (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        churchylafemme, Avila

                        Thanks for that...

                        Anyway, at this point we're both just repeating positions.

                        To resolve this, we can't continue ignoring what each other is saying, and doubling down. But this demonizing of me tends to make that very difficult.

                        There is a lot more to this than is evident here. What I notice in personal arguments is people tend to want to mutually blame each other, rather than understand without the blame. Its as if we're taught that someone is bad, the other good. Someone is at fault, the other faultless. Some one must be guilty, and punished. Or something.

                        I tend to like no-fault solutions. People need to understand each other. When they don't things break down. The way to fix it is by understanding.

                        I suppose I can understand how this looked to you. I don't think you have any real idea how this looks to me, or what is going on on my end of this. I don't see that happening, and that is sad.

                        May you go well, Joanne. I've got to work.

                        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                        by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:26:54 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          ek hornbeck, TheMomCat

                          as the current Blamer-in-Chief, I'm sure you would be very attentive to these kinds of details.

                          What I notice in personal arguments is people tend to want to mutually blame each other, rather than understand without the blame.
                          You go well too.  I'm sure you've got a lot of work to do.


                          "Justice is a commodity"

                          by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:40:11 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Stay well, Joanne. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            churchylafemme, Avila

                            And yes, I do have work to do. And I'm probably in big trouble for not doing it, getting a late start. Its unsupervised... and I'm really fucking up.

                            Next insult?

                            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:47:17 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  That would be a shame... (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        TheMomCat, Cassiodorus, LaEscapee

                        and I urge you to reconsider.

                        I know how hard it is and I'd like nothing better than to steal you off for my sites.

                        But part of what we do here is help those weaker than we are and it's a responsibility, not an option.

                        I do it for Willy and I'll continue until they carry me out in a box.

                        •  ek (6+ / 0-)

                          Shake it off. Shake off this toxic, manipulative, contrived nonsense.  We're all going to keep working for real change.

                          Seriously, everybody, this is not a prison. It's not the only place in the world where we can work together.

                          Watch this. Breathe.  Shake off the toxicity.  Don't let anyone deter us.

                          P.S. Thank you SO much to the person who just sent me some very enlightening transcripts.  I can see clearly now.  LOL, we should all go back to what makes us feel empowered, what we enjoy. We know it when we see it or are part of it.  We've got a ton of options for organizing and brainstorming.  

                          Just remember what the real fight is.  The 99%. The megalomaniac and fearful 1% (and their agents) who are well aware of the way things have always turned out through history.


                          "Justice is a commodity"

                          by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 03:31:53 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Under consideration... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheMomCat

                            but the answer is probably... no.

                            What you do is public service and without you doing it I'd feel compelled to substitute in my weakest and worst way.

                            I'm destined to die in battle as the tide turns to victory.  Your fate is yours, but I'm unlucky to stand close to.

                          •  Hi- I hope you will stay? (0+ / 0-)

                            please know I've learned from you and others, and if you left Daily Kos would be without an important perspective. I know we don't always agree, but that doesn't mean I have not learned.

                            I think both What's Happening and The Evening Blues add a lot of value to Daily Kos.

                            I know only part of the story, and that part could even be incorrect. But I'm not interested in who is right or wrong on what. I just want everyone to start feeling better.

            •  I'm not sure who you're referring to with all (11+ / 0-)

              your comments, but you seem to be lumping together a group of people when saying you're "stunned" at how they view race.  As someone that runs with some of that group, I have to assume I'm included.  You do not know enough about me to be "stunned" about my views on race.  And the people who flat out stated I'm a racist do not either.  Your diary fed into that, encouraged it, validated it for some.  That's what pissed me off, being called a racist by people who are hypocrits because they support a murderous democratic administration.  
              But as they say, all's fair in love and war.  

              "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

              by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:36:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I never called you, or anyone, a racist (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                churchylafemme, Wordsinthewind, Avila

                Do I think there is a lack of empathy? For fucks sake, if that isn't obvious, nothing is.

                I have confidence in my ability to perceive things. I'm not blind. I see what I see. But I never called anyone a racist. I think people are fucking clueless about race. I think people don't understand the experience, from an empathic human perspective, what people of color go through. I think the understanding is mostly intellectual.

                And that isn't enough sometimes. And the defensiveness we white people feel when this is discussed is something I have not been immune to. I have been defensive. And I don't want to approach it that way.

                It seems there is no way to validate the feelings of the Black community without someone feeling I'm invalidating the white progressive community. If you took what I wrote as validating anything, I was validating very clearly not racism, but certainly lack of human empathy. Yes, I admit to that and stand by it.

                Got to go.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:57:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Human empathy? Man, you keep digging. (0+ / 0-)

                  And did I say "you" called me a racist?  That's not what I said.  
                  FYI, you're not the only nonconformist in the world.
                  Got to go.

                  "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

                  by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 05:24:38 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Zhen, I think I've been as intellectually (18+ / 0-)

          fair as anybody on this site, including to my opponents. And I think you're wrong in the "everybody's the same" assertion.

          Both sides don't want the same thing. One side wants people off this site. The other just wants to be able to have space in their diaries to advocate for progressive positions without being attacked by people advocating what used to be, not so long ago, Republican talking points. Nor do they want to be attacked as racist because they don't like President Obama and his policies.

          They want racism to be attacked as racist, they want Obama to be treated like a President rather than a saint, and they want their points to be debated with honesty and logic, as between allies, as opposed to having Rovian propaganda tactics used on them.

          As for the safe space you're talking about--I hope you don't mean my abortive effort at starting Caucus Diaries, because those were not intended as "a safe space where people can taunt" anybody.

          I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:29:13 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  No need to take my comments defensively (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            churchylafemme

            I see far more nuance and far more about the discord involving race than you might surmise, as I can judge by your comment. I understand why you wanted the Caucus Diaries, although I've not taken a stand on that. I watched the discussion over the years, and have often been torn, and felt more than a little anguish over what I've seen. I wanted to weigh in years ago with a diary, but I didn't think it would have been well received, and I didn't think I had the skills to do it well enough to convey what I had in mind. I thought I could have bridged the divide, but I was a coward, I'm sorry to say. But now my suspicions seem confirmed: With some, perhaps some on both sides, the divide can't be bridged.

            I am appalled at some of what I've seen here lately. There are things both sides don't entirely see... and I've been wrong about some things, too. I've read, I've listened, I've learned, and I'm still evolving. If anyone here thinks they don't have anything to learn about the issues of race, then they are definitely part of the problem. There is a lot of pain on all sides going back to the 2008 primaries. It is awful to see this. I'm privy to some very personal perspectives shared off site. I know the hurt that some feel. I get it. And that hurt is on both sides.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:44:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK, no offense taken (9+ / 0-)

              I'm a little sensitive on that point. You would be surprised at the negative things some people said in response to the caucus idea.

              Or, perhaps, you wouldn't.

              FWIW, I think racism and issues of race generally can be quite nuanced and complex.  I also think sometimes they can be as simple as a boot in the face.

              And then sometimes I think people use them duplicitously, to manipulate the political conversation in certain directions. I've seen the same thing done with sexism, and I'm aware of the problems with even stating such a thing (the slippery slope is a very real problem here). But I'm also aware of the problems with not stating such a thing and allowing the practice to go on and on unimpeded.

              Most of the time, though, I simply attempt to sidestep the extremely disturbing discourse around President Obama, who is being used as a way of reifying a number of authoritarian ideas about the Presidency that his supporters would under other circumstances never endorse.

              I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:19:13 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Tangentially--those supporters are going to get (8+ / 0-)

                one hell of a shock when Barack Obama no longer holds the Presidency, but the ideas they promoted in support of him live on, in a white, and possibly even a Republican administration's hands.

                I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

                by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:21:11 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I see that, and raise you 10. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  kj in missouri

                  The whole system is corrupt, going back before Obama ever came on the scene.

                  Clinton wasn't that great either. and Hillary may be the next to carry the neo-liberal torch.

                  This isn't going away anytime soon, no matter who we elect.

                  Thus, it isn't as if one person is the reason all of this is happening. It is the entire system that fosters this.

                  My personal sociopolitical philosophy is social anarchism.

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:28:47 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Certainly not. It's not like Obama is the font (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TheMomCat, CroneWit, Johnny Q, lotlizard

                    of corruption or the source of the problem.

                    You're quite right that individualistic analysis of all this is, uh, lacking.

                    Obama is a powerful piece being played very effectively by, IMO, reactionary forces. I don't know to what degree he has independent power and I don't know to what degree he agrees with the use that others make of him, and for the point I'm making, it doesn't matter.

                    His status as the first AA president, and the political capital that creates, is being used to advance the aim of accruing much more authoritarian power to the Presidency. Even the foaming at the mouth types who think he's a Kenyan Socialist Fascist Martian, or whatever, are playing their own role in enabling the Presidency to get more authoritarian, because they make criticism of him an idiotic practically Neanderthal knuckle-dragging affair of sheer tribal/racist loathing. Thus, since they're foaming at the mouth with hatred saying he's Hitler, or something, it becomes really hard for a rational person to say that he's being used to transform the Presidency into something scary. Something with kill lists.

                    I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

                    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:15:53 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Kill lists, "indefinite detention," force-feeding, (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Cassiodorus

                      … and total eradication from public awareness through state secrets, the "your personal memories are CIA proprietary information" doctrine, and (Soviet-style) bureaucratic declaration of prisoners to be unpersons who will not be reported on anywhere anymore.

                      http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

                      The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

                      by lotlizard on Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 05:28:06 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Hadn't noticed that kibosh on reporting (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Cassiodorus, lotlizard, CenPhx

                        It's horrible, but fairly normal for this Administration, which is more concerned with Opinion Management and message control than any other administration I've ever seen.

                        If you have a problem, rewrite the dictionary:

                        Earth doesn't have homeless.

                        I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

                        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 07:00:08 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

            •  That's crap Zhen (6+ / 0-)
              If anyone here thinks they don't have anything to learn about the issues of race, then they are definitely part of the problem
              Should I talk to my brother and sister? What you are doing isn't anarchist what you are doing is dividing the very people willing to attack the system.

              You attack those that actually are willing to move this system and then claim you are more pure, you're doing nothing more than what you claim to despise. You've known me for awhile and know I don't play that shit. All the pretty words in the world will not make up for heart.

              peace

              Victim of the system~Bob Marley

              by LaEscapee on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:21:33 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Those divisions were already there (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Wordsinthewind, JoanMar

                All I did was talk about dehumanizing pictures, express a view, and all hell broke loose. Anarchism isn't about eliminating all disagreement and division, it is about living together and coping with disagreement in a better way. One way that is not accomplished is by offending whole parts of a community with depictions that are insulting.

                And your response? You posted another picture of an ape big balls. Classy, dude. That's telling us!

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:44:44 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Indeed, there's a point here where the ... (4+ / 0-)

            ... polarization that is a side effect of an effective hiderate blogswarm mob obscures something:

            Nor do they want to be attacked as racist because they don't like President Obama and his policies.
            There's also not liking some of President Obama's policies and liking some of President Obama's policies.

            It may be a hard point for partisan factions to grasp, but for people whose loyalty is to the policies that they wish to see as opposed to a faction of politicians, it would be highly unusual to disagree with each and every policy that any administration pursued.

            Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

            by BruceMcF on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:51:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Most of the time, yes. (5+ / 0-)

              And if I scrape hard enough, I can find a few policies even in this Administration that I support.

              But it gets harder and harder the more the 400 wealthiest families in the country control the government and the policy debate.

              I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 03:08:04 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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