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View Diary: Winning arguments at DailyKos.com (220 comments)

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  •  That lack of links prove the diary to be an (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    indubitably

    applause line for people looking for excuses, not an argument intended to convince anyone.  Maybe the real problem is that you write for the pets and praise of a few idiosyncratic posters..

    If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

    by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:07:37 AM PST

    •  Before HTML, you see... (18+ / 0-)

      there was no such thing as argument, and human communication was used only to elicit praise and to communicate with pets.  But, then, with the invention of "links," a whole new world of argument opened up to the human race!

      "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

      by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:11:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Unsubstianiated arguments are old as dirt. (0+ / 0-)

        If it makes you feel a part of an ancient tradition.    You lack footnotes.

        If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

        by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:19:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Here I use one of Grice's maxims of conversation (13+ / 0-)

          From http://en.wikipedia.org/... :

             Make your contribution as informative as is required for the current purposes of the exchange.
              Do not make your contribution more informative than is required.
          I didn't cite evidence in the diary per Grice's maxims, but there is a good deal of evidence for what I'm saying here, and since I'm offering a SUMMARY, substantiating all my points means presenting a diary that would have been too long.  If you're looking for evidence, however, you can start with the fair number of diaries that argue through guilt by association.  Here's an example from last night -- the author didn't diagram the argument of the piece by Ted Rall, correctly identifying its thesis and supporting arguments, but rather decided to "make hay" of the title of the piece in order to establish guilt by association.

          I can find more if you like.

          "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

          by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:38:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Heh. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Eyesbright, kkkkate
              Do not make your contribution more informative than is required.
            I think that your contribution provided all the information requ for an applause line from everyone looking for an excuse and finding it in Someone On The Internet Likes Obama Too Much.  For an argument....no.
             If you're looking for evidence, however, you can start with the fair number of diaries that argue through guilt by association.
            You don't know what "guilt by association" is.  It's when the individual is associated by someone else; such as, you hate Obama, so you're friends with racists.  When Rall advocates Paul, it's his advocacy of a douche, freely takeng, that makes him condemnable.

            And by turn, advocating Rall's bullshit.  BTW>

            If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

            by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:23:51 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Feel free at any point (8+ / 0-)

              to diagram Rall's actual argument.  (Hint: it's not

              When Rall advocates Paul, it's his advocacy of a douche, freely takeng, that makes him condemnable.
              )

              "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

              by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:27:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Heh. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                kkkkate

                You just link something, and leave it up to me to prove your point for you!   Is that from the Chip 'N" Dale School of argument?

                Well, not that I can blame you.  Why not leave argument up to people who are good at it?

                If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:47:39 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  The point is that you don't want to do it. (10+ / 0-)

                  You would rather use guilt-by-association tactics, which is to some extent what this diary is about.

                  "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

                  by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:06:53 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The point is that you can't do it. (0+ / 0-)

                    But you need to blame someone for failing to accept arguments that you can't and don't make.  That's what this diary is about.

                    If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                    by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:14:06 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Ted Rall's argument: (15+ / 0-)

                      Main thesis:

                      The most liberal politician in America is a right-winger.
                      Elaborated as follows:
                      Paul has become the most, perhaps the only, establishment political figure expressing a progressive vision on a host of incredibly important issues…issues that have been abandoned by the state-sanctioned Left.
                      Supporting argument:
                      Rand Paul, who in May led a 13-hour filibuster in the Senate over Obama’s drone war
                      Supporting argument:
                      Paul, a right-wing Republican who believes Israel can do no wrong, is nevertheless he establishment’s most passionate defender of privacy rights.
                      Supporting argument:
                      Paul, a free-market purist, wants to overturn the vile Patriot Act, get rid of the useless TSA (“The American people shouldn’t be subjected to harassment, groping, and other public humiliation simply to board an airplane”), and states openly that proposals for Congressional oversight of the NSA — typical, lame sops to public disgust, and Congress was supposed to be doing that all along, weren’t they? — won’t be enough.
                      Qualifying proposition:
                      On a lot of issues, Rand Paul’s stances are contemptible. Exhibit A: He opposed the Civil Rights Act as a violation of “state’s rights,” the clarion call of the segregationist Old South.
                      Supporting argument:
                      Rand stood tall against Obama’s fascist National Defense Authorization Act, which allows the federal government to kidnap U.S. citizens and throw them into prison forever without charging them with any crime.
                      Summary:
                      Though nascent, the libertarian-left attack against the liberal-conservative establishment is a big deal.
                      But, hey, why diagram when guilt-by-association is so much easier?

                      "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

                      by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:25:43 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Also: (10+ / 0-)

                        Quotes above #4 and #5 also contain qualifying observations.

                        "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

                        by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:36:42 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  Sure (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Eyesbright, WB Reeves

                        If you believe Rand Paul's stances on these issues would be the same if a republican president were in office.  

                        I sure as fuck don't.  

                        Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

                        by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:37:39 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Since you came late to the party -- (9+ / 0-)

                          I'll recap.  My point in this thread is that many participants here find guilt-by-association arguments easier to make than arguments which take seriously those arguments made by others.  

                          "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

                          by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:50:01 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'd agree with that (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Eyesbright, WB Reeves

                            and I've done it myself, unfortunately.  When it comes to the NSA stuff, it's pretty easy to smear just about anyone with an unsavory association or two, so I agree that's probably unhelpful.

                            I also stand by my assertion that many of these right-wing nut jobs like Rand Paul who co-opt left-libertarian positions would not be so fervent about them if a republican were in office.  

                            Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

                            by Mark Mywurtz on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:06:40 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  Well, I know that a good progressive likes Rand (0+ / 0-)

                          but I'm pretty sure that he's never spoken out against the dry counties in Kentucky as an infringement of personal liberty.   But there I go with guilty by association, wherein I hold Rand guilty by associating him with....Rand.

                          If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                          by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:04:57 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  Heh. All you're arguing is that Rand is great (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        kkkkate

                        and therefore there shouldn't be any guilt involved in listing all the very important ways he's involved in a "libertarian-left" (!!!).  

                        Not that there shouldn't be any association.  It's really silly to say that Rall, who has actually invented the term "libertarian-left" just to associate himself (and you, though you don't seem to mind) with the likes of Rand Fucking Paul.  

                        But that's the way it is, of course.  The problem is that people don't like Rand Paul, so that association with him is damning, where you would rather that they felt that way about Obama.  

                        Maybe the entire diary can be supported with one link, to the part where it's a democratic website.  That probably explains why you aren't getting a lot of traction with the Rall/Rand ticket in your eleventy dimensional chess of supporting people on the basis of how much they hate Obama, in the sort of ironic projection that I've come to expect from people who couldn't persuade a squirrel to eat nuts.

                        If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                        by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:38:56 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  . (7+ / 0-)
                          Heh. All you're arguing is that Rand is great
                          I'm not arguing anything with my diagram.  When I diagram an argument, the argument retains the authorship of the person making it.
                          The problem is that people don't like Rand Paul, so that association with him is damning,
                          This is why you think that guilt-by-association arguments have some power to persuade anyone.

                          "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

                          by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:47:41 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Your argument is that there was "guilt by assoc". (0+ / 0-)

                            Clearly, Rall is praising Rand in a very public and definitive way.

                            So you're problem must be with someone asserting guilt just because he praises Rand, because A) you also think Rand is a great guy or B) you're confused or C) you've managed to back Rand Paul by accident in trying to show how argumentin' is done.  

                            If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                            by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:13:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Rall is praising Rand -- (6+ / 0-)

                            in a qualified way.

                            And just because I posted some Post-It Notes to show how Rall's argument is structured logically doesn't mean that I agree with anything in it.

                            "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

                            by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:44:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your disclaimers are irrelevant. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            kkkkate, Wordsinthewind

                            Unless you think that everybody has to appreciate praise of Rand Paul, qualified or otherwise,  Rall's association of himself with Rand Paul is subject to criticism.

                            It's really funny how the eleventy dimension chess to protect Ted Rall ends ups with having to shet yer mouth as he praises Rand Paul.

                            Turns out, there's plenty of hero worship and knee jerk defending going on.   Just not where YOU thought is was; frankly, seeing the big guns turn out for Ted Rall shows how crappy your heroes are.

                            If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                            by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 04:19:39 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's entirely possible to praise anyone (0+ / 0-)

                            in a qualified way, including Joe Stalin and he who must not be named.

                            That doesn't make it either politically or ethically wise to do so.

                            Nothing human is alien to me.

                            by WB Reeves on Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 10:47:27 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Or... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Cassiodorus, angel d

                            D) My name is Inland, and I'm a bad-faith actor skilled at misrepresenting and otherwise distorting my opponent's side of the conversation.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 04:12:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  U stil mad bro? (0+ / 0-)

                            If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                            by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 04:23:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, I couldn't be happier... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Cassiodorus

                            Nothing gives me more satisfaction that seeing you so thoroughly dismantled, thanks to Cassiodorus.

                            :)




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 06:00:14 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  *than* (0+ / 0-)




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 06:00:57 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ;) (0+ / 0-)

                            Cas. gave U rec for ur love now U at cool kids table? Awesum bro u can stop cry.

                            If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                            by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:51:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You really shouldn't text while driving. (0+ / 0-)

                            And you should consider spell checking your comments, or, if that fails, at least issue a correction.

                            That way people don't think you're stupid.

                            Whatever path you decide to take, I wish you luck. Given your performance above, you need all the help you can get.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:25:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  U care bout people? (0+ / 0-)

                            Noone in dead threads so nobody see U trollin.  U scared, bro.  

                            Wud bother givin U words but you no get nothing.  I be on FP article on ur bud Rand, hope you give "conditional" support so Rall can feel love.

                            If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                            by Inland on Mon Dec 09, 2013 at 07:59:54 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Pathetic. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Cassiodorus

                            You're flailing, Inland.

                            Given your performance in this diary, not to mention Joe's "cartoon" diary, I'd say you're pretty much past your peak.

                            I love every one of your comments like the above. It only further makes the case that you are, indeed, what many of us have long suspected.

                            All you have is ad hominem. It gets more pronounced as a thread starts going further and further south for you.

                            I actually hope you keep up the insults.

                            Why?

                            Because I have a handy custom search where I can retrieve every comment you've ever made to me, in all their glory.

                            When you see them all in one place, the reality of your douchebaggery becomes even more undeniable.

                            Thank you for being you. :)




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 03:24:11 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  And when you look at the argument that way (5+ / 0-)

                        you see a possibly important development in American politics that maybe we should be talking about. But we don't want to talk about it around here, because it might lead us to answers we don't like.

                        Or even further questions that scare us.

                        I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

                        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:53:20 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  analyzing the culture one lives within (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Demeter Rising, tardis10

                          Learning how to unravel the beliefs woven throughout our culture, the stories our friends and family and coworkers and teachers believe and enact, and then learning to examine one's own beliefs within that context, and then figuring out to how get through the rest of one's life while carrying the burden of understanding, can be a daunting chore.

                          Social feedback loops make it less painful, and thus much easier, to decide instead, "Don't go there."

                        •  It may lead us to praising Rand Paul. (0+ / 0-)

                          I guess that you're more concerned with asking questions than getting half way decent answers.  And yeah, it's the dumb answers that should scare everyone.

                          If Hobby Lobby is against contraception, why does it buy its inventory from China, the country that limits the number of children by law?

                          by Inland on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 04:21:33 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  I am rubber you are glue.... (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Johnny Q

                      I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

                      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:51:29 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

          •  Like a lot of academics (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Cassiodorus, Meteor Blades

            I have a real problem with that one. I have a bad tendency to over-inform.

            I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:50:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Some learned (6+ / 0-)

        using cliff notes

        Victim of the system~Bob Marley

        by LaEscapee on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 08:24:26 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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