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View Diary: Winning arguments at DailyKos.com (220 comments)

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  •  Well, I guess that's true (12+ / 0-)

    but that's an odd statement.  I'm not invested in making enemies here either, if that's what you are implying.  

    But the fact that it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it's not a tactic that people who are determined to disrupt and distract and drag more people into their shit use.

    If you're just here to chat and never debate, etc., you can avoid being targeted. But if you have criticisms, making enemies is completely unavoidable.


    "Justice is a commodity"

    by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:24:35 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I wasn't at all implying that that is what you're (7+ / 0-)

      here for.

      This is just how I spend my time here. I have plenty of criticism and a touch of praise for current policies, etc. But I don't allow myself to get dragged into a pie fight. I'll argue for the things I believe in but when it crosses the line into ad homs and old personal grudges, I walk away.

      As for that tactic.... Yes, I have seen it plenty of times, but what I also see is both factions only acknowledging it when it's the other side that does it. The reality is that both "sides" do it.

      Both sides wallow in the mud while claiming only the others are throwing it.

      P.S. I am not a crackpot.

      by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 09:33:23 AM PST

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      •  Sometimes (7+ / 0-)

        getting dragged into a fight can come when you least expect it. And once it erupts, it is very hard to escape from with any semblance of having been able to get your side of the story told without it being completely overrun by the tide of sneering ignorance. And sometimes, it is very personal, and very hard to ignore.

        Is it worth it? Hard to say. But it certainly can cost a price. What do you do when being called mentally ill for caring about an issue. Ignore it? Walk away?

        Even the most sainted person here has not been able to get pulled into the drama, and each side accuses the other of being the instigate.

        What I have seen here lately is very disturbing. I've seen such viciousness among people I'd thought of as friends that I'm having to review my understanding of the entire dynamics here. We all can be blind to our own side of a debate, to such an extent, that any of us can become smug assholes without as much as a clue we've descended into behaving like all those we oppose.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:12:35 AM PST

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        •  Edit: (4+ / 0-)

          Even the most sainted person here has not been able to [refrain from] getting pulled into the drama

          "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

          by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:15:38 AM PST

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        •  Everyone -- (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, TheMomCat, shaharazade, CroneWit

          What would "not participating in DailyKos.com" do for your daily routines?  Therapy is not therapeutic if it hurts too much.

          "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." -- Frank Zappa

          by Cassiodorus on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:21:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  So, this is therapy for you? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            churchylafemme, AnnetteK, Eyesbright

            I don't understand the allusion to therapy, unless you're here for that purpose, or have some notion that coming here for that purpose is such a common motivation that you could direct that comment to "everyone".

            Who comes here for therapy? Care to elaborate?

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:29:39 AM PST

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        •  I know what you're saying (10+ / 0-)

          And I used to get sucked in to the same things here. I no longer care about getting my side of the story out there. Speaking of mentally ill, I am mentally ill yet have been attacked for being insensitive to the mentally ill, or for supposedly not acknowledging the stigma attached to it.

          Just last night an idiot told me I didn't know what I was talking about re Amazon.com- that they don't make mistakes or screw ups. I worked with Amazon in a professional capacity for years and know exactly how much they can screw up.

          Years ago I would have fought it out. I used to love setting fire to every straw man that was hurled in my direction.

          But I don't care anymore. It's not worth it to me. There are too many hard feelings on all sides and I don't want to get dragged in to any of it or play any role at all in the drama.

          I do follow some of the fights and I know how contentious it is. But I also lost a lot of respect for several members here that I used to have a great deal of respect for. And there are people on both sides that that applies to.

          I used to call my "friends" out on their behavior even when I agreed with them, now I don't even bother.

          I am not here to fight. I'm not here to burn bridges. It is hard for me to walk away from a fight but it's harder to lose friends over a stubborn fight on the internet.

          P.S. I am not a crackpot.

          by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 10:35:00 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Thank you for the thoughtful response (5+ / 0-)

            And I may very well follow in your footsteps. I think the gravitational pull of group-think, stemming from a strong human trait of conforming to one's social milieu in order to survive, leads people to overlook the behavior of their peers. One simply becomes blinded to it.

            I used to call my "friends" out on their behavior even when I agreed with them, now I don't even bother.
            I've long observed that conformity is the price of admittance to many groups, and certain nonconforming behaviors can lead to immediate expulsion. The group psychology that leads to expecting conformity is perhaps a survival trait which evolved in our hunter-gatherer past, to keep group efficiency and cohesiveness together, forming a stronger bond in order to survive. And thus, individuals who strayed from group-think may have, in the distant past of our species, threatened the group's survival, and the group's instinct is to rid itself of the individual so as to prevent the disruption of the group's ability to function.

            And so, in modern times, ideas which don't conform are seen as betrayals and  threats, even when they really aren't. The instinct kicks in to attack the non-conformist, and resort to shunning, making the offender an outlaw or outsider.

            I've seen this several times in my life with group behavior. It's the Lord of the Flies response that can become so ugly and vicious.

            Maybe we need a group for outsiders who have that in common as a social trait, the nonconformist gene, as it were... but that would probably backfire too.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:23:09 AM PST

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            •  I suppose I don't experience that here (7+ / 0-)

              because I don't have a "group" per se. The roxxers can sometimes rightfully claim me and the suxxers can also rightfully claim me at other times.

              If anything, I think I am part of the LGBT group, but that is also diverse and not easily split between the two dominant factions here.

              I am political and I have strong opinions, but as far as this website goes, I'm mostly just a storyteller when I write, and a listener when I read. Most of my disagreement is expressed in snark, while my agreement tends to lead me to more thoughtful places.

              I think I'm the only person on this site who was just as happy to see blackwaterdog leave as I was to see slinkerwink be (temporarily) banned. It wasn't anything personal, but at the time they were both singing the same song, just mixing up the timing and harmony.

              I don't take claims of persecution on this site seriously. I just don't. This site is what we make of it. Not as a group but as individuals. I get what I want out of it and ignore the rest. It's all just noise, and I'd prefer to write my own song rather than contribute to the messy percussion section of another person's grudge.

              P.S. I am not a crackpot.

              by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 11:38:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  For what its worth (5+ / 0-)

                Your independence, and the way you express it, which is not exactly pulling punches, is something I've gotten an enormous kick out of, even if I'm sometimes taking the brunt of it.

                You are very cool. I've often been completely impressed by how you express yourself here.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:15:52 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  I'm thinking if you're not a diarist (8+ / 0-)

      but primarily a commenter, it's a lot easier to do.

      If you write diaries, you're painting a big target on your back--if you hold views a certain cadre of people doesn't like.

      I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

      by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:14:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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