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View Diary: Winning arguments at DailyKos.com (220 comments)

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  •  I realized you might respond this way (6+ / 0-)
    For those of us who really don't want to be involved, just leave us the fuck out of it, okay?  
    Which is why I first established that you brought this into the thread today. So, I didn't draw you into this, you drew yourself into it by stating this:
    You can try to stay out of it, and choose how much time you'd like to invest in observing it (like maybe no time at all after it's been raging for a week) but even if you do that, people will force you into their stupid fights by over running your diaries with it against your wishes.  

    In fact, you can even delete your diary because people have trashed the comment threads, and then republish it with a note about why you did it, and the same people can come in and trash it again, deliberately and taunt you, saying now you'll have to delete it again, with no push back or sanction from the lovely moderation at dkos.

    I won't link to the thread that started all of this, but I stand by what I said: I responded to a comment in the Ev. Blues which another person made, to set the record straight about my perspective. I think that is allowed here. And my response was quite late, in a forgotten inactive thread, but that same individual I responded to then chose to make another allusion to that thread in the E. Blues the next day, thereby drawing attention to the dead thread that hardly any had even seen.

    It could have all died in that old thread, but it was brought into the forefront by her comment.

    I responded to that, and anyone can see how ugly it got. So it wasn't me "overrunning" people's diaries, but rather people commenting in mocking tones regarding my participation.

    I also received several rather insulting kosmails, and of course that clued me in to what sort of chatter was going on in at least the minds of some.

    As to the diary being deleted, and then someone going in the diary when it was republished, that could have been avoided, but for the hide rates that ensued. I am certainly not perfect, but I didn't initiate those comments which were made in the Evening Blues. But when people comment, as was again done here in this diary, and in those comments allude to the actions of others, then I think those others should be able to respond.

    And as to my fabrication of attacks, as you allege, anyone can see, if they can find the thread, how that discussion went. It wasn't pretty. Context means everything here. And the larger context, in part, is I had no idea friends would respond to me the way they did. I had some idea I might be accorded a bit more tolerance, since I thought I was in relatively "safe" territory. That caught me by surprise. In fact, the entire response to my various comments regarding the dehumanizing pictures of blacks caught me entirely off guard. I did not realize the degree to which people still harbored such painful wounds over the racial divide that occurred here years ago.

    I stepped into a hornet's nest, and this time the hornets were my friends.

    So, no, this isn't about some "goal" or agenda I have. This isn't some devious game I'm playing, or some horrible machinations I've thought up. If I am guilty of anything, it is having strong opinions about how minority races are treated, and not having set the record straight a long time ago about where I stood. I tried a few times, but no one noticed. And I am also guilty of being stunned at the way people with whom I've generally found agreement respond to issues of race. I noticed right away the way people stopped being friendly, stopped reccing my comments, making me feel as if I'd become persona-non-grata among my own friends. Yeah, I noticed.

    I felt so stunned I wanted to delete my account. I tried with a GBCW diary. I wanted closure. People mistook my intent entirely, and thought I was leaving for reasons completely opposite to my actual intentions. It was surreal. So I added my rant to the diary. And then later deleted it.  I got emails from people who thought they were siding with me, only for them to later realize I was not with them on this issue of the depictions. they were blindsided by my real position, and the whole thing became theater of the absurd.

    And then the little snide comments began to creep in here and there, in reference to me and my perspective.

    So, I answered it. That's the long and short of it. I noticed who defended me, who did not, who allowed me to be thrown under the bus with nary a word in response.

    I've learned something about people in the last several days, something I'm naive about, and I need to learn that I have a choice: I can conform to a group substantially enough to be accepted, or I can fly solo. Some issues are less crucially divisive. But it seems race isn't one of those areas where people will be forgiven for not conforming. Its as if people side one way or the other on dkos, and there is no room for nuance and complexity in perspective.

    I may write something about this if I find the time. I work all the time, and usually when I write here it is late at night, but otherwise, I'm playing hooky from work at my own expense. So I don't have a lot of time, and I'm a slow writer... I need time to allow my mind to work. So this is hard for me to do.

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

    by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:11:51 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  And yet, here you are again. n/t (11+ / 0-)

       

      What we need is a Democrat in the White House. Warren 2016

      by dkmich on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:34:21 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  This is a flat out lie (8+ / 0-)

      and a completely dishonest representation of the situation.

      I object to the way you've dragged community diaries into this Zhen, and I have the right to object to it.  I object to your misrepresentation, with a broad brush, of how you've been attacked by your friends.  This is a complete fabrication.  You are the person dragging your friends, unwillingly, into this, and making things up about how you were treated.


      "Justice is a commodity"

      by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:41:31 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  it is not a fabrication. (5+ / 0-)
        This is a complete fabrication.
        ~joanneleon

        "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

        by kj in missouri on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:45:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  My god... (5+ / 0-)

        Joanne, I'm not lying. It is an opinion. Naturally, this will look differently depending on where one sits, but no, it isn't a lie.

        I think most people want to be understood, to get out their side of a story, and I'm no exception.

        I've been exhausted the past week or so, and haven't had the energy to write anything longer, which would have been a better way to approach this debacle. There are some things that need saying.

        But no, I'm not sitting here lying... I know full well what happened. I know how I got the cold shoulder and smug responses at best from my friends, and at worse acerbic vitriol. There have even been posts alleging my concern about race is a form of mental illness.

        NO, it isn't not a lie.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 12:59:06 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Zhen, we're war weary (10+ / 0-)

          and the things you've been saying for days were not represented as an opinion, though I can see why you'd try to back pedal now.

          Further, I'll speak only for myself but I know there are others who feel this way.  We're war weary.  Just like the country is war weary, so am I with the emotional, time sucking battles here.  I also think that with this particular issue, there is no end to the battles because for some, what's behind it is not what it appears to be. Not for all, but for some.  

          I've been through this for many iterations.  It plays out nearly the same way every time.  This is not the only place in the universe where issues can be discussed. Some places are better than others to talk about different issues. Some places just have more expertise on certain things, or just a better format or venue.  

          And as long as I am being specific, I'll tell you what I am angry about.  I'm angry at the way you attacked joe. I know for a fact that he never attacked you, he doesn't hate you, didn't feel any animosity at all. I know how hard he works on the Evening Blues diaries while also holding down a full time job.  The way you went after him and tried many  times, to bait him into fighting with you, all the while making a broad brush claim that your friends were attacking you, was disgraceful.

          I know joe pretty well now, online and offline.  It would be hard to find a more kind hearted, funny and interesting person than joe.  It would also be hard to find someone who has gone out of his way more to avoid hurts and fights and who has tried to intervene and be as understanding of both sides as he possibly could.  I've witnessed it time and time again. But you insisted on trying to bait him into a fight with your insults and relentless hurtful behavior.  I am really angry about that.  

          I'm going to stop trying to have a conversation among the people who insist on inserting themselves into this, trying to fuel it further, just for their own entertainment or whatever other motivations they have (I'm not talking about everyone involved in the conversation, just a few, and it should be obvious who I'm referring to).  I'm going to write a diary about it instead.


          "Justice is a commodity"

          by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:29:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "entertainment" (6+ / 0-)

            joanneleon, i'll try and make it a point to read your "war weary" diary that expresses your idea that some people consider standing up for the right of other's to speak their own perceptions of life and living as "entertainment."

            one of the issues i've been engaged in is dismissing one person's attempt to define another person's motivations, political beliefs, or work-on-the-ground via their own lens, and not the person that are attempting to define.   and i've been engaging on-line since 1999 in conservative forums that were no deletions and no bannings boards.  i've had crap thrown at me by conservatives trying to "define" me that would curl the hair of Daily Kos posters.

            it is such an arrogant misconception that you, or anyone else, think you can divine another's intent that i'm almost at a loss for words to express my disgust that you'd even try.

            if Zhen is your friend, why don't you buck up your "weariness" and go hiderate the comments that dissed his mental health.   if you're such a strong, principled person... go do that.   no?  don't wanna?   wanna write a diary about what you think is "entertainment" for other people?

            please. proceed.

            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

            by kj in missouri on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:44:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  and.... i'm out. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Avila

            "From single strands of light we build our webs." ~kj

            by kj in missouri on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:45:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Sorry, Joanne, but you midunderstood (4+ / 0-)

            I was not at all backpedaling. I stand by all that I've said. I suppose I could be seen as backpedaling from a straw-man you may have created in place of my arguments. This whole thing became a mess from the outset, probably due to a lot of factors.

            I'm a very complex, nuanced person. You do not know the entirety of my point of view. You likely never will. Only so much can be communicated in this kind of setting. I'm not a hater. I don't hate Joe, or you, or anyone. If Joe had been a bit less artificial, dismissive, smug, and coldly acerbic in his treatment of me things might have gone differently.

            And Joe has his own perspective on the depictions, no doubt which had something to do with his response. We're not all talking in a vacuum here. We see the pattern of recs, the comments, etc. We all know each others history.

            I know that you are friends with Joe offsite. No surprise why you feel strongly in defending him.

            As to people you're arguing with who have defended me: If not for them, I would have been left out in the cold rain of DKos community. This entire thing is surprising to me, that people I've tended to agree with have disowned me, while people with whom I've never had agreement have treated my with warmth.

            I got an email from someone accusing them of "love bombing" me. I think that's hogwash. I think they are genuinely empathic people who see someone struggling to come to terms with a situation, and they reached out. And I'm deeply touched, and glad for their support, and all of this has given me a lot to ponder and process for weeks to come.

            I've got to go work, playing too much hooky. I work almost everyday of my life, including weekends.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:47:42 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  He told you (11+ / 0-)

              numerous times that he was not being disingenuous or smug. If anything, he was warm and welcoming, and trying to keep peace.  He tried to demonstrate that to you, but you had decided you know what he was thinking better than you did, so you kept attacking him and when he wouldn't fight, you went on to try to pick a fight with others.  And all the while you were broad brush smearing your friends, who you claimed were attacking you.

              It was really, really bizarre.  Personally, I had hoped that you would step back and realize what the reality of the situation was. But you never did, and still haven't. You're still maintaining that something that never happened, did happen, and you keep telling me that you're so busy, but this has been going on relentlessly for a week, as far as I can tell.  

              I'm pretty sure I'm going to bail out of dkos.  This is by far not the only reason but it's the last straw.  I decided to take today, maybe this week, to decide whether or not I want to continue investing the work into a daily series here, when this kind of crap is most likely going to march its way into my series too.  Maybe you'll open the door and hold it open for people who hate the thing and have wanted to trash it for the last two years.  You can pick the fights in the name of "dissent" against imaginary slights, then pretend you're the victim, then they can swoop in to defend you.  See how that works?   Somehow, after this exchange with you today, I think you'd get a lot of satisfaction out of that.  And I agree with you in this sense -- I really don't know who you are or what your real goals are.  

              Bascially, I'm just not down with all of that.  I'd rather invest my time in places where these kinds of manipulations, abuses, etc. are not encouraged or used as entertainment or most importantly, used to suck all the oxygen out of the room and to distract from other pressing issues of the day, issues that are inconvenient for the powers that be.  This high drama also divides enormously and at a point in time when the people are waking up, and real, honest to goodness push back is happening against the status quo, when discussions about primary challengers are budding, when coalitions are forming to rein in the surveillance state, when the whole country is saying no to more war, it's a great time to create a huge meta drama that leaves the place in a smoking pile of crap and then to fuel it, day after day.  I'm not going to be a part of that. I'm going to be somewhere else, working with others for real change.


              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:14:40 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Correx (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ek hornbeck, TheMomCat

                "you had decided you know what he was thinking better than you did"

                =

                "you had decided that you knew what he was thinking better than he did"


                "Justice is a commodity"

                by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:16:22 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Well (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                churchylafemme, Avila

                Thanks for that...

                Anyway, at this point we're both just repeating positions.

                To resolve this, we can't continue ignoring what each other is saying, and doubling down. But this demonizing of me tends to make that very difficult.

                There is a lot more to this than is evident here. What I notice in personal arguments is people tend to want to mutually blame each other, rather than understand without the blame. Its as if we're taught that someone is bad, the other good. Someone is at fault, the other faultless. Some one must be guilty, and punished. Or something.

                I tend to like no-fault solutions. People need to understand each other. When they don't things break down. The way to fix it is by understanding.

                I suppose I can understand how this looked to you. I don't think you have any real idea how this looks to me, or what is going on on my end of this. I don't see that happening, and that is sad.

                May you go well, Joanne. I've got to work.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:26:54 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Yes (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ek hornbeck, TheMomCat

                  as the current Blamer-in-Chief, I'm sure you would be very attentive to these kinds of details.

                  What I notice in personal arguments is people tend to want to mutually blame each other, rather than understand without the blame.
                  You go well too.  I'm sure you've got a lot of work to do.


                  "Justice is a commodity"

                  by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:40:11 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Stay well, Joanne. (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    churchylafemme, Avila

                    And yes, I do have work to do. And I'm probably in big trouble for not doing it, getting a late start. Its unsupervised... and I'm really fucking up.

                    Next insult?

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 02:47:17 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  That would be a shame... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheMomCat, Cassiodorus, LaEscapee

                and I urge you to reconsider.

                I know how hard it is and I'd like nothing better than to steal you off for my sites.

                But part of what we do here is help those weaker than we are and it's a responsibility, not an option.

                I do it for Willy and I'll continue until they carry me out in a box.

                •  ek (6+ / 0-)

                  Shake it off. Shake off this toxic, manipulative, contrived nonsense.  We're all going to keep working for real change.

                  Seriously, everybody, this is not a prison. It's not the only place in the world where we can work together.

                  Watch this. Breathe.  Shake off the toxicity.  Don't let anyone deter us.

                  P.S. Thank you SO much to the person who just sent me some very enlightening transcripts.  I can see clearly now.  LOL, we should all go back to what makes us feel empowered, what we enjoy. We know it when we see it or are part of it.  We've got a ton of options for organizing and brainstorming.  

                  Just remember what the real fight is.  The 99%. The megalomaniac and fearful 1% (and their agents) who are well aware of the way things have always turned out through history.


                  "Justice is a commodity"

                  by joanneleon on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 03:31:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Under consideration... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TheMomCat

                    but the answer is probably... no.

                    What you do is public service and without you doing it I'd feel compelled to substitute in my weakest and worst way.

                    I'm destined to die in battle as the tide turns to victory.  Your fate is yours, but I'm unlucky to stand close to.

                  •  Hi- I hope you will stay? (0+ / 0-)

                    please know I've learned from you and others, and if you left Daily Kos would be without an important perspective. I know we don't always agree, but that doesn't mean I have not learned.

                    I think both What's Happening and The Evening Blues add a lot of value to Daily Kos.

                    I know only part of the story, and that part could even be incorrect. But I'm not interested in who is right or wrong on what. I just want everyone to start feeling better.

    •  I'm not sure who you're referring to with all (11+ / 0-)

      your comments, but you seem to be lumping together a group of people when saying you're "stunned" at how they view race.  As someone that runs with some of that group, I have to assume I'm included.  You do not know enough about me to be "stunned" about my views on race.  And the people who flat out stated I'm a racist do not either.  Your diary fed into that, encouraged it, validated it for some.  That's what pissed me off, being called a racist by people who are hypocrits because they support a murderous democratic administration.  
      But as they say, all's fair in love and war.  

      "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

      by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:36:47 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I never called you, or anyone, a racist (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        churchylafemme, Wordsinthewind, Avila

        Do I think there is a lack of empathy? For fucks sake, if that isn't obvious, nothing is.

        I have confidence in my ability to perceive things. I'm not blind. I see what I see. But I never called anyone a racist. I think people are fucking clueless about race. I think people don't understand the experience, from an empathic human perspective, what people of color go through. I think the understanding is mostly intellectual.

        And that isn't enough sometimes. And the defensiveness we white people feel when this is discussed is something I have not been immune to. I have been defensive. And I don't want to approach it that way.

        It seems there is no way to validate the feelings of the Black community without someone feeling I'm invalidating the white progressive community. If you took what I wrote as validating anything, I was validating very clearly not racism, but certainly lack of human empathy. Yes, I admit to that and stand by it.

        Got to go.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 01:57:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Human empathy? Man, you keep digging. (0+ / 0-)

          And did I say "you" called me a racist?  That's not what I said.  
          FYI, you're not the only nonconformist in the world.
          Got to go.

          "It is easier to pass through the eye of a needle then it is to be an honest politician."

          by BigAlinWashSt on Sun Dec 08, 2013 at 05:24:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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