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View Diary: RKBA: Cali waiting periods going away? (99 comments)

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  •  Why I'm for waiting periods. (5+ / 0-)

    A person I cared a lot about was having trouble with depression and properly balancing his medication because of side effects.  He sold his guns because he was afraid to own them for what he might do in a dark and momentary mood.  Being in a state with no waiting period one day he went out and bought a gun and killed himself.  It's been twenty years and his family still grieves.

    Mandatory Gun Insurance would provide for victims, encourage safety and not be an excessive burden on gun owners. How to do it at Gun Insurance Blog. I also make posts at Huffington as Tom Harvey.

    by guninsuranceblog on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:46:40 PM PST

    •  Why I'm against waiting periods. (14+ / 0-)

      My sister escaped from an abusive marriage, and her now-former husband threatened her with violence.

      Knowing that a restraining order is nothing more than a piece of paper, I was very happy that she was able to purchase and immediately acquire a firearm to use in self-defense.

      Turns out, if she had needed to wait for ten days, she would have been in quite a lot of trouble.  Not having to wait, she was able to enforce her instruction to her now-former husband to vacate the premises when he showed up, drunk, at 3:30 in the morning.

      "No amount of belief makes something a fact." --James Randi

      by theatre goon on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 01:51:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have mixed feelings about waiting periods (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kasoru, theatre goon, LilithGardener

        There are very good reasons to be able to get a gun that afternoon (like being granted an order of protection).  I think its an argument for good up to date databases.  

        I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

        by DavidMS on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 02:16:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  While I agree with no waiting (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        theatre goon

        periods, especially if you are a prior owner... Thought most states have a waiver for the waiting period if you have a valid order of protection?

        And every time there is a discussion on waiting.. I always think of the Simpsons.

      •  Glad your sister made it out. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        coquiero

        The period right before and month after leaving is when a partner is a highest risk for murder by a ex-partner domestic abuser. We owe a lot of support to this vulnerable population because by the time it gets around to leaving there have usually been dozens of serious injuries, and a sustained and escalating pattern of threats and disruptive incidents.

        But I have to ask, and this is not snark. Did she report the incident to the police? Would a locked door + call to the police have not been sufficient?

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 05:59:44 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Of course she reported it to the police. (8+ / 0-)

          It only took them around twenty minutes to arrive -- this was a rural area, without particularly quick police response time.  And, of course, it wouldn't have been especially easy to make that call while being beaten, which would have been the case had she not been armed.  You might recall, I mentioned this happened around 3:30 in the morning -- he didn't exactly schedule an appointment.

          The locked door lasted, at an estimate, maybe three minutes.  It doesn't really take very long for a determined person to kick open a door.

          So, roughly seventeen minutes with no protection except what she could provide for herself.

          No, all things considered, I would not say that a locked door and a call to the police would have been sufficient.

          "No amount of belief makes something a fact." --James Randi

          by theatre goon on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 06:18:37 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Concur (0+ / 0-)

            I concur with your assessment of the urgency of her rights and her need. Thank you for sharing a personal example, where people can move beyond the hypothetical and into the real world.

            In Woollard v Gallagher it took more than 2 hours for the police to arrive. IMO, it's helpful when people can see these  real life examples.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 06:56:34 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener

        Her pissed off now-former husband would have been able to immediately acquire a firearm to threaten her with as well.  

        Political compass: -8.75 / -4.72

        by Mark Mywurtz on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 07:10:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  A good argument for universal background (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Mark Mywurtz

          checks. All transfers should go through an FFL. And if there was a PO granted this afternoon, it should be required that states post it to the NICS database right away, at least the same day.

          In the DV case a few hours could make the difference in whether she is murdered.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:36:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  He already had one. (5+ / 0-)

          More than one, in fact.  That being the case, a waiting period would have done no good whatsoever.

          He also could have purchased one illegally (we already know he was not particularly restrained by laws, what with the spousal abuse and all), and therefore a waiting period would have done no good whatsoever.

          What a waiting period could have done, however, is kept my sister from buying one, since she is a law-abiding person.

          And, clearly, he didn't need a waiting period to beat her with his fists and kick her with his feet.

          All that under consideration, I don't see how a waiting period would have helped in this situation.

          "No amount of belief makes something a fact." --James Randi

          by theatre goon on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 04:16:21 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  You don't need a gun to comit sucide (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      theatre goon, Kasoru, FrankRose

      Uncle Richard would have probably met me (I probably would have been to young to remember him) had he not committed suicide off a bridge.  And I am not calling for the banning of bridges that do not have electrified fences.  

      In that part of my family baring accidents (like being gored to death by a bull) or not being able to hold on long enough to get one of the 1st heart valves you could expect to live into your 80s.  

      I'm a 4 Freedoms Democrat.

      by DavidMS on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 02:24:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  No, but it helps (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener, coquiero

        Guns are by far the #1 method for successful suicide. The combination of easy access (unlike bridges) and high lethality (unlike pills) do the trick.

        The Golden Gate Bridge, which is a magnet for suicide, will probably be getting a safety net. So, you might be a little more careful in what you say on the topic.

        •  Easy access and high lethality? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          theatre goon, Kasoru

          Rope.
          The most used tool minors use to commit suicide.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 08:18:08 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Firearms are more lethal than hanging (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener, coquiero

            You go to the drawer, take out the gun, and die. Even hanging requires more effort, in knotting the rope, etc. Moreover, there is more likelihood of rescue. The statistics on this are really pretty clear.

            Also, firearms are more popular for about 16+ y.o. I'm having some trouble finding the exact crossover. Below that, yes, rope is more common, but the suicide rate in that age group is lower.

            This looks like typical gun nut static, trying to obscure facts that are plain as day. Firearms account for over half of successful suicides, and are twice as popular as the runner-up. States with high firearms ownership have higher suicide rates, and, moreover, the non-firearms rates are similar, implying that some people without access to guns do not successfully kill themselves by another method. Why is it so hard for gun nuts to admit that guns can cause problems?

            •  Speaking of facts: (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kasoru, Robobagpiper

              I suggest you hit the link.
              It will show you that rope is used more often than firearms when minors commit suicide.

              "States with high firearms ownership have higher suicide rates"
              Rural areas have higher suicide rates, no matter the method.

              Why is it so hard for those ignorantly paranoid of inanimate objects to accept facts?

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:19:05 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Minors as a whole yes, but heavy at the low end (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener, coquiero

                I hit the link. Rope is (very slightly) more popular for 0–19. However, the crossover year-by-year is below that. In data for 1992 thru 2001, firearms was more popular in the 15–19 cohort, while hanging was preferred by the 10–14 year olds. This is a straightforward question about how to aggregate data, although, of course, the numbers move over time. Your link covered only a one-year window and didn't subtotal within in 10–19 age group. Even though that is more recent, I suggest that my larger, less aggregated data set is at least as good (except, I suppose, that it makes guns look worse).

                As for rural areas, you should probably have read your own link all the way through. It also says

                Experts think easy access to firearms is partly behind the high rates observed in the countryside. Part of the problem is the lethal reliability of guns—an attempt with a gun is often more successful than other methods.
                Rural areas have higher rates of gun ownership. And that is  one reason, perhaps the most important, why they have higher suicide rates. As I pointed out, the non-firearms rates are fairly similar between high-gun and low-gun areas.

                You should stop worshiping your gun long enough to read your own links.

                •  You mean the link that says.... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Kasoru, Robobagpiper
                  In Japan, a nation with a culture steeped in ritual suicide, suicide rates for men living in cities dropped between 1970 and 1990. Over roughly the same period, rates increased in rural areas.
                  Not too many firearms in Japan....a nation with a far higher suicide rate than in the USA.

                  You should stop cringing in fear of an inanimate object long enough to read my own links.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:46:30 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There are a lot of cultural factors behind suicide (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LilithGardener, TRPChicago, coquiero

                    Suicide is often a crime (to speak obsoletely) of opportunity, which is why having a reliably lethal weapon available is dangerous.

                    I see you wrote a diary asking what a gun fetishist is. I'll tell you. A gun fetishist (or gun nut for short) is someone who believes his metal friend can do no harm. I like to drive, but I have some sense of how that can be bad for the environment. I eat meat, likewise. Gun nuts are devoid of any understanding of the dangers of guns, whether in the hands of the depressed, or other risky situations. And the shoe fits.

                    You can bring in lots of irrelevant Japanese statistics to obscure the issue, but none of it erases the facts that (1) firearms are the leading cause of suicide in the United States, (2) USA high-gun areas have more gun suicides than USA low-gun areas and statistically it is unlikely that there would have been as many suicides in the absence of guns.

                    I work as a volunteer at a suicide hot line. I assure you, we are a hell of a lot more worried when a distraught caller says they have a gun, than when they say they have some rope.

                    •  I had no idea that 6 letters was so much work. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      theatre goon, Robobagpiper, Kasoru

                      Please, save yourself the strain & stick with 'gun nut'.

                      "lots of irrelevant Japanese statistics"
                      If by 'lots', you mean 'none' (beyond the fact that Japan has more suicides than the US, with hardly any firearms).
                      If by 'irrelevant' you mean a quote from the exact same link you quoted.
                      And if by 'statistics' you mean.....well, I didn't introduce an actual statistic, so you lost me at this point.

                      "USA high-gun areas...."
                      ......are rural areas.
                      Rural areas have higher suicide rates no matter the method, or the availability of firearms...ya know...like in Japan...that 'irrelevant' area that has just become 'relevant' as a result of the rural-urban divide that was the main point of that entire link.
                      A link that-according to you-has, at turns, been both 'irrelevant' and 'required reading'.

                      1) Take a deep breath.
                      2) Think about what you would like to say.
                      3) Try not to contradict yourself in the same comment.

                      .......or just type 'gun nut' a few more times:
                      Whatever works for you, bud.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:13:40 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Japanese suicide habits are tangential (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LilithGardener, coquiero

                        The data for the United States are clear. The rural-urban suicide attempt rates in the USA are similar. (See data comment.) It's the success(?) rate that is different, and that is because of guns. (I am actually a little surprised that the attempt and non-gun rates were the same; I would have expected higher in the rural areas but not by as much as to explain the difference in the total without accounting for guns.)

                        It's very funny, in a sick way, that you are all for guns (over other weapons) when it’s a question of defending yourself from an armed intruder or violent spouse. Well, the same properties of firearms that make them better for those situations is what makes them worse when you are drunk and severely depressed.

                        I don't think Japanese data travel that well to the United States. The cultural attitude towards suicide is extremely different. We didn't expect Robert E. Lee and Jeff Davis to slice their bellies open.

                        •  I haven't said a thing about 'armed intruder' nor (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          theatre goon, Kasoru

                          'violent spouse'.
                          So, yes. There is something 'funny, in a sick way' about this conversation.
                          It just isn't what you think it is.

                          "I don't think Japanese data travel that well to the US. The cultural...."
                          1) You mean that there are far greater factors for predictors of suicide?
                          Gosh. I sure do wish that had been my point.
                          2) Suit yourself...
                          France, Belgium & thirty-one other nations have a higher suicide rate than the US, with a coinciding lower firearm per capita rate.

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:29:58 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Over 100 other nations have lower homicide rate (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LilithGardener, coquiero

                            It's late and I lost count. So, what exactly is your point? You're just waving your hands, trying to stop people from noticing the obvious: guns are a convenient way to die by your own hand.

                            No one is claiming that firearms availability is the only factor in the suicide rate. (You don't think that the difference in religious attitude between the USA and Japan is relevant?) However, within the United States, it is clear that more guns in a community means more suicide. It seems, at least from the one study I cited, to be much stronger than a general rural-urban divide, since the suicide attempt rate was similar.

                            In a 2008 survey, the state with the highest percentage of suicide attempts was Rhode Island! Note that the attempt rate for (rural) Montana and Wyoming is low, but their actual suicide rate is high.

                            Don't you find it interesting how except for one survey that lumped 0-19 year-olds together, you've stopped supplying any data about the United States? That's because the data doesn't support your position.

                          •  And 102 have a higher homicide rate. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon, Kasoru

                            "You're just waving your hands......"
                            Uh....dude, you just brought up homicide rate.

                            "from the one study I sited"
                            The only thing your link showed was that 3 rural states have a higher suicide rate than 3 urban states.
                            The same phenomena is seen in other nations as well.
                            Here, much better link.
                            You will notice that:
                            Florida is 41st in gun prevalence, yet 19th in suicide.
                            Nevada is 37th in gun prevalence, yet 3rd in suicide.
                            South Dakota is 4th in gun prevalence, yet 14th in suicide.
                            Arkansas is 5th in gun prevalence, yet 15th in suicide.
                            Colorado is 36th in gun prevalence, yet 7th in suicide.
                            Alabama is 7th in gun prevalence, yet 28th in suicide.

                            "Don't you find it interesting..."
                            Indeed, I do.
                            I also find it interesting that I have provided raw data.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:09:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Cherry-pick 6/50 of states ignores overall picture (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LilithGardener, coquiero

                            Your own link[!!!]:

                            As these maps show, the correlation between guns and suicide is strong but inexact, since both are influenced by poverty, population density, and crime. The nine states that rank lowest in terms of gun prevalence are the very same nine that rank lowest for suicide rates. Similarly, the three states top-ranked for gun prevalence can be found among the four states ranking highest for suicide rates.
                            Why, exactly, is it so hard for you to admit access to guns makes it easier to commit suicide? After all, you think all sorts of good things are facilitated by such access (e.g., lower crime)? One bad thing is impossible? Gun fetishist: worships guns. They can no more be flawed than Jesus to Christians.
                          •  And the actual hard data they provide (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon

                            contradict their assertion.

                            Their best evidence disputes their own contention.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 10:02:46 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Then let us look at some more states. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon

                            In addition to Florida, Nevada, South Dakota, Arkansas, Colorado and Alabama, there is also:
                            Mississippi 9th in gun prevalence & 22nd in suicide rate
                            Minnesota 19th in gun prevalence, yet 41st in suicide rate
                            Arizona 31st in gun prevalence, yet 9th in suicide rate
                            North Dakota 10th in gun prevalence, yet 21st in suicide rate
                            Louisiana 13th in gun prevalence, yet 30th in suicide rate
                            Washington 33rd in gun prevalence, yet 17th in suicide rate
                            Oregon 28th in gun prevalence, yet 10th in suicide rate.

                            That is over a quarter of states which not only doesn't support their thesis, but is directly contrary to it.

                            Their conclusion is garbage, disproven by the same stats that they try to use as evidence.

                             

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 11:56:42 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Get back to me after taking a stats class (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            You behave like a tobacco company that finds couple of octogenarian smokers.

                          •  I'm back. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon

                            Guess what?
                            Stat classes aren't impressed by citing data points that directly contradict the conclusion.
                            Whodathunk?

                            "You behave like a tobacco company"
                            Strange. I seem to remember tobacco companies citing studies that made conclusions that were widely contrary to the data points.
                            In fact, I would describe the tobacco studies, the same way the above study described itself; "Inexact"

                            Get back to me when that study can get to the point of demonstrating so much as coincidence.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 01:18:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How strong is the correlation (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            It would be bizarre to find a perfect match between gun ownership and suicide. The data show a strong correlation. You went out and picked the furthest outliers in an attempt to refute that. By your logic, an octogenarian smoker "refutes" what we know about the danger of tobacco. Your logic is bogus. Go argue with Gauss, he invented least-squares-fit.

                          •  When over a quarter of 'correlations' are actually (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon

                            contrary (significantly so), there is no correlation.
                            There's not even enough of a 'correlation' to be considered so much as a coincidence, let alone a conclusion.

                            That study is bogus.  Embarrassingly so.
                            One could even go so far as to call it "Inexact".

                            "By your logic, an octogenarian smoker "refutes"...."
                            Not my logic. The study's logic.
                            They point to the top two states in suicide rate (which are also the states with the lowest population density....something that actually correlates with suicide rate), and "firearm prevalence" and they made that into a stated 'conclusion'.

                            A conclusion based upon two states that when extended to all 50 states, is wrong.
                            Illustratively so.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 03:13:14 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As I said, come back after a stats class (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero
                            When over a quarter of 'correlations' are actually contrary (significantly so), there is no correlation.
                            It ain't mathematically so.

                            Gun worship is making you stupid. Just sayin'.

                          •  Yes. You are 'just saying'. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon

                            I am proving.

                            Which is a large reason why your arguments are so easily refuted & your viewpoints have been so thoroughly rejected by the public.

                            Just keep sayin' 'Gun worship', 'Gun nut' & 'Gun Fetishist'....sooner or later inventing words in lieu of citing facts or using any level of intelligence is sure to pan out.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 04:03:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  FrankRose, run the correlation for me (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            Until then, you aren't 'proving' squat. The facts are simple: gun ownership correlates with suicide. I've put up links to more than one study showing that. One such study even claims that the non-gun suicide rate is the same in low (urban) and high (rural) states; which surprises even me. Finding some outlier counterexamples doesn't change the correlation. Can you explain, in the language of statistics, what it is you are "proving" and why you think you have done so?

                            You are just like the conservative idiots who say there is no climate change problem because it snows one day. Indeed, I think you would fit in much better with the conservative anti-math anti-science movement. Are you sure you didn't join here by mistake?

                          •  You haven't even managed to wrap your head (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon

                            around the simple numbers I had to provide to you that showed that over 26% of the claimed 'correlations' were actually contrary, because you eschewed looking at two simple maps, instead choosing to barf-out invented words.

                            Here, let me put it to you in language you have already demonstrated such a virtuosity for: LOL GUN FETISHIST< GUN NUT!!!111!!!r u a CONSERVAATIVE?!!?!!

                            Take it to youtube. Should be more your speed.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 05:07:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Look correlation up in a dictionary (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            coquiero

                            "Claimed 'correlations'"—you are confusing correlations with data points?!

                            You are innumerate. Sorry, but you should spend less time on the firing range and more at some community college stats class.

                            I'm done here. You simply don't know what you are talking about in terms of statistical evidence. Maybe it isn't guns, maybe you are that clueless about everything but guns are they only thing important to you that you will venture onto the Web and show you wouldn't know a correlation coefficient if it bit you in the butt.

                    •  What are your thoughts on the low rate of (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      TRPChicago, coquiero

                      firearm suicides in DC? They have the lowest gun suicide rates by far, (and also the lowest gun ownership rates).

                      Their gun laws are really onerous and I'd venture to guess that the whole process of handgun purchase in DC imposes perhaps the nations longest effective waiting period. Yet we also know from the high homicide rate that there are plenty of guns in DC. So it's not just about the number of guns.

                      Your thoughts?

                      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                      by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 11:31:34 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Here's the American data (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    LilithGardener, coquiero

                    I have a feeling you didn't get all the way through this study, so let me excerpt it for you.

                    There were about 7,300 firearm suicides in the [16] states with the most guns - including Alabama, Montana and West Virginia - in 2008 to 2009, according to findings published in the American Journal of Epidemiology.

                    That compared to 1,700 suicides by gun in the [6] low ownership states, such as Hawaii, Massachusetts and New York.

                    The number of non-gun suicides in the two sets of states was similar, at about 4,200 and 4,300, respectively. What's more, state-wide rates of suicide attempts did not differ based on levels of household gun ownership

                    •  Again: Rural and urban. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      theatre goon, Robobagpiper, Kasoru

                      Rural areas have more suicides by all methods & even in nations that have few firearms.

                      In Japan, a nation with a culture steeped in ritual suicide, suicide rates for men living in cities dropped between 1970 and 1990. Over roughly the same period, rates increased in rural areas.
                      Blaming guns would be a convenient way to wrap up this story, but the reality is that they are merely a means—albeit a very effective means—of committing suicide. Rather, there are deeper issues behind high rural suicides rates, most of which revolve around how mental health issues are handled.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:17:24 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Explain again why Japanese data trump American (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        LilithGardener, coquiero

                        The study I linked to above says that recent American data don't show more rural suicides by methods other than guns. Are you suggesting that the study is inaccurate? Presumably that can be analyzed, for example, by attempting to replicate with another year's data.

                        What I see instead is a kind of scattershot response, where exactly on-point numbers are countered with statistics about Japan. On the other hand, if I were to suggest that Japan's much lower homicide rate were connected to their severe restrictions on guns, I have no doubt you would be rushing to provide alternative explanations.

                •  Complaining (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Andrew Lazarus, coquiero

                  Will commence 5...4...3..2...

                  Some group members consider gun nut to be an insult. Just letting you know.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:08:00 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  You might be interested (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Andrew Lazarus, coquiero

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:41:03 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Do you think you can refrain from using other (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kasoru

                people's diaries from shamelessly shilling for your own?

                Treating a comment section as a fucking advertising board for you to pedal your own crap is tacky, rude and an actual example of 'threadjacking'.

                It is also something you have been asked to refrain from before, so you already know better.

                Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 06:24:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Relax, Frank (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Andrew Lazarus, Miggles

                  It's common enough practice.  It's related to the subject matter at hand.

                  Or, might it be that you don't want people to have the information that Lillith is offering, because you realize that it is of much higher quality and greater veracity than your dictionary definitions, cherry picked stats, and blatant insults?

                  Hmmmm???

                  I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                  by coquiero on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 07:17:17 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  An accusation of shilling from FrankRose (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    coquiero, Miggles

                    is like getting an F from the NRA.

                    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                    by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 07:38:40 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Actually, its not which is why Lilith (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Kasoru, theatre goon

                    has been HR'd for it in the past.

                    Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                    by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 08:12:01 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I guess you can (3+ / 0-)

                      Link to the rule then, right? Or else you're describing - gasp - HR abuse by the RKBA group.

                      Heavens to Myrgatroid!

                      I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                      by coquiero on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 08:17:00 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Actually, there are some (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        coquiero

                        HRs in my history, and one of them is an example of community moderation's effectiveness. The others? Not so much.

                        LINK

                        No, what's going on here is that a few
                        HR by Tom Seaview – no reason given
                        09/27/2013    2    1    2

                        Are some rights more equal than others?
                        6HRs - in a book review. A true mistake, one that I was slow to recognize, and for which I gladly ate a large helping of humble pie once my error was made clear to me.
                        09/07/2013    1    6    7

                        It is very sad, but I have to disagree that it
                        HR by cdreid – no reason given
                        08/20/2013    21    1    3

                        Oh Look! Someone wants to start a new
                        HR by JayfromPA – no reason given   
                        06/11/2013    5    1    3

                        I don't know what you're planning or your
                        HR by GoGoEverton    
                        04/04/2013    11    1    2

                        One more try
                        HR by GoGoEverton    
                        04/04/2013    9    1    1

                        Do you [how] know many other... nt
                        HR by GoGoEverton    
                        04/04/2013    9    1

                        Are you buddies now - planning something?
                        HR by GoGoEverton   
                        04/04/2013    10    1    4

                        KV lies about guns whenever it's convenient nt
                        HR by GoGoEverton   
                        03/20/2013    7    1    4

                        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                        by LilithGardener on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 09:02:11 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Actually, I was referring to (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          theatre goon

                          this comment,

                          Are some rights more equal than others? (1+ / 6-)
                          Recommended by:
                          slowbutsure
                          Hidden by:
                          cfk, scilicet, catilinus, Flying Goat, Brecht, quiet in NC
                          Are some rights more equal than others?
                          You remember, don't you?
                          The one where you were told that treating someone else's diary as an advertising section for your own crap was inappropriate?

                          You worked really hard to insure that RASA V2 would be an echo-chamber, why aren't you over there enjoying it?

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 09:40:39 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  The HRs for her threadjack didn't come from any (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        theatre goon

                        member of RKBA.

                        Of course, accuracy & consistency has never been your strong points.
                        Hate to see you break your streak now.

                        Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                        by FrankRose on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 09:45:59 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You need to be clearer, then (0+ / 0-)

                          So when you refer to "it" as in

                          Actually, its not which is why Lilith (1+ / 0-)has been HR'd for it in the past.
                          you should articulate better to avoid confusion.

                          If you're referring to threadjacking, then you're a joke.  That was no threadjack and you know it.

                          Carry on.

                          I blog about my daughter with autism at her website

                          by coquiero on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 09:49:02 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

        •  Not really. Hanging and CO poisoning (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FrankRose, theatre goon

          have approximately equal completion rates to handguns.

          There are a number of reasons someone contemplating suicide would pick one of the lethal three over the other. Concerns of how one's body will be found by family or friends appears to move people toward hanging and CO poisoning. Fear of interruption tends to move attempters toward guns. Fear of pain probably pushes people to CO poisoning and guns, probably more the former. Fear of mutilation in the event of failure probably pushes people away from guns.

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 08:37:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Context matters - impulsive decisions are (0+ / 0-)

        central to both gun suicides and gun violence. And I suspect there is a strong link to drugs/alcohol for those who pull the trigger in both groups.

        Weapons in Case of Confrontation – Youth and Young Adults at Risk
        Leading Causes of Violence-Related Death – Ages 10-44

        Age Groups

          10-14               15-24               25-34               35-44
        Cropped chart showing Top 5 leading causes of violenc-related death for ages 10-44, 2010. Full charts available for each year 2004 through 2010, 10LCID_Violence_Related_Injury_Deaths_2010-a.pdf, at http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html
        Violence-related death for ages 10-44, 2010
        The top five leading causes of violence-related death for ages 10-44. The chart for all ages is available at CDC-WASQARS for each year from 2004 through 2010. In the top row you can see that the leading cause of violence-related death for 10-24 year-olds is due to unintentional motor vehicle accidents. For 25-44 year-olds the leading cause of death is unintentional poisonings, and unintentional motor vehicle accidents drops into second place. In all four brackets firearm homicide and firearm suicides are among the top five leading causes of violence-related death.
        Ages 10-14  
             Gun Homicides - 4th leading cause of violence-related death
             Gun Suicides - 5th leading cause of violence-related death
        Ages 15-24
             Gun Homicides - 2nd leading cause of violence-related death
             Gun Suicides - 4th leading cause of violence-related death
        Ages 25-34
             Gun Homicides - 3rd leading cause of violence-related death
             Gun Suicides - 4th leading cause of violence-related death
        Ages 35-44
             Gun Homicides - 5th leading cause of violence-related death
             Gun Suicides - 3rd leading cause of violence-related death

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 09:18:29 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  20 years ago, there was no NICS. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrankRose, Kasoru

      Now, if he, or his family, or his medical professional cared to put him on the NO GUN 4 U list, he'd be precluded from all purchases via a licensed dealer.

      That said, I've known a few people who planned greatly for their self-induced demise.
      Living will and DNR should they survive.  Financial arrangements.  A call to someone other than a child/spouse to "stop on over" - and thus discover the body.

      One was a gunshot.  One a hanging.  Two intentional overdoses... planned-for by seeking multiple prescriptions.

    •  Requiring buyers to go through a FFL (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      FrankRose, theatre goon

      (during the "waiting period" era) does have a small impact on suicide rates, though it's so tiny it might be statistical noise. Source: Kleck, "Point Blank".

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 08:33:09 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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