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View Diary: John Kerry faces deep bipartisan skepticism and some sneering in House hearing on Iran agreement (116 comments)

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  •  exactly, since there're a lot of moving parts (8+ / 0-)

    in this process....

    "We're in a good place to negotiate," he said. The "test and verify" approach will prove whether Iran is serious or not.

    Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

    by annieli on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 03:24:20 PM PST

    •  "Test and verify" sounds a lot like Ronald Reagan (5+ / 0-)

      and his approach to agreements with the Soviet Union: "Trust, but verify".

      Reagan. The GOP should love that, but for the fact that apparently now Reagan is a Communist. ;)

      •  agreed --- we're all Reaganites now! (4+ / 0-)

        Veer, but Trustify!

        Warning - some snark may be above‽ (-9.50; -7.03)‽ eState4Column5©2013 "I’m not the strapping young Muslim socialist that I used to be" - Barack Obama 04/27/2013

        by annieli on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 03:30:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Republican hardliners opposed every agreement (11+ / 0-)

        with the Soviet Union until Reagan came around.  Many neocons were Democrats until they decided that Jimmy Carter was soft on Communism.  

        I had thought that Iraq had discredited this crowd, forcing them back under the rock from whence they came, but I guess I was wrong.

        "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

        by Navy Vet Terp on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 03:42:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  On the contrary: the neocons' plan is on schedule. (6+ / 0-)

          Iraq has been destroyed.

          Libya has been destroyed.

          Syria is in the process of being destroyed.

          Iran is still in the crosshairs for being destroyed either by sanctions or by direct attack.

          The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

          by lotlizard on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 04:29:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  They were pie in the sky before Iraq (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Another Grizzle, commonmass, slothlax

            We would invade and take over Iraq and duplicate what we did in post war Germany and Japan, establishing a prosperous and peaceful democracy and then peace and democracy would spread throughout the Middle East and then Israelis and Palestinians would sit in circles holding hands singing Kumbaya.  

            My feelings at the time was that these were wonderful goals and a wonderful vision, but that would not be the outcome of launching an invasion of Iraq.  Again, you would think that their failures in Iraq would cause some reevaluations on their part.

            "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

            by Navy Vet Terp on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 04:42:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hardly, once one realizes (5+ / 0-)

              that "prosperous and peaceful democracy" was never part of the plan for Iraq -- or for that matter Libya or Syria or Iran.

              It's all about plunder.  All that pious cant about "democracy" is for the rubes.  Us, in other words.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 05:02:15 PM PST

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              •  In fact, it never ceased to amaze me (4+ / 0-)

                how few Democrats (the Republicans being of course already impervious to rational thought) failed to ask themselves, while in the orgiastic throes of Iraq War hysteria:

                "How can this Dubya guy be so concerned for bringing democracy to Iraq when he has so much contempt for it here at home?"

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 05:18:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  I don't agree there (0+ / 0-)

                I think most neocons genuinely think their approach is the righteous and moral one. They really do have (completely shortsighted and misguided) liberal justifications for the idea that we should impose democracy on other sovereign nations.

                There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

                by slothlax on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:18:56 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  I think that was just the cover story. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo, commonmass

              The real objective in the Middle East was simply to replace any regime and/or destroy any country that isn't submissive toward our friends, the Israelis and the Saudis.

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

              by lotlizard on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 05:05:13 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Neocon policy summed up by "the Ledeen doctrine": (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              corvo, Lowgun, Meteor Blades, commonmass
              Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business.
              http://en.wikipedia.org/...

              Neocon policy summed up by Thomas Friedman as (verbatim quote) "Suck on this":
              http://www.youtube.com/...

              The Dutch kids' chorus Kinderen voor Kinderen wishes all the world's children freedom from hunger, ignorance, and war. ♥ ♥ ♥ Forget Neo — The One is Minori Urakawa

              by lotlizard on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 05:12:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  republicans disagreeing seems ususal but the Dems (7+ / 0-)

          are really pissing me off, especially the ones who insist we must increase sanctions NOW.

          This is a good step, a good deal where we have everything to gain, nothing to lose. Getting rid of all 20% enriched and daily inspections... that is a big give.
          Do they think negotiations should START with Iran giving everything before we allow anything?

          Holding all the countries together on sanctions is important in having them work and that has gotten a little shakier. If  Iran breaks this agreement even China and Russia will want to continue sanctions.
          (But what if we do... by imposing more sanctions?)

          Dems badmouthing this has to be the weird way they just like to show support for Netanyahu

          •  Democrats have a longer and deeper history (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            decisivemoment, commonmass

            of reflexive Israel support than Republicans do.  It hit the latter only in the course of the 1980s, as the fundies took over their party, and wasn't terribly characteristic of Poppy Bush's policies.  

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 05:19:53 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  I always thought that was a pretty good saying, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        NYFM, slothlax

        origin notwithstanding.

        Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
        Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
        Code Monkey like you!

        Formerly known as Jyrinx.

        by Code Monkey on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 03:55:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  That remains one of the stupidest lines ever. (0+ / 0-)

        "Of course I trust you, honey, I just want to show that paternity test to our little girl when she grows up, so she knows I'm her daddy".

        Translation of the Reagan moronism:  "Of course I don't trust you!  That's why I insist on verification".

        I am become Man, the destroyer of worlds

        by tle on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 05:59:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's a Russian proverb... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          commonmass

          ...(doveryai, no proveryai) that Reagan was taught by Suzanne Massie, a Swiss-American, and used so much that Mikhail Gorbachev good-naturedly kidded him about it.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 06:20:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  That is a terrible analogy (0+ / 0-)

          Trust but verify wasn't used to describe the relationship between married partners, but mortal enemies. What a ridiculous way to attack a completely reasonable statement.

          There is truth on all sides. The question is how much.

          by slothlax on Tue Dec 10, 2013 at 10:23:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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