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View Diary: Something to irk the bishops: Big increase in number of women who get birth control under ACA (49 comments)

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  •  I just don't understand why they oppose it. (8+ / 0-)

    The "good book" says God said "be fruitful and multiply." But he is supposed to have said that to the only two people on the planet, right? It seems to me that god might have changed his feelings on the topic by now.

    Most of the people taking a hard line against us are firmly convinced that they are the last defenders of civilization... The last stronghold of mother, God, home and apple pie and they're full of shit! David Crosby, Journey Thru the Past.

    by Mike S on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 01:13:58 PM PST

    •  God should write a correction: (9+ / 0-)

      ...Be fruitful without multiplying.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 01:25:52 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  No, he would've had a prophet, heralded by a (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      side pocket, Mike S, OldDragon, JeffW

      blood red comet walk the land and explain it in many tongues if that were the case. We're all supposed to be providing cannon fodder for a jumped up stone age warrior god specific to the small area that his sacerdotes had fantasies of conquering. Since the Romans kicked their ass, it seems like a moot point, but the priestly descendents of various stripes still trumpet the original loutish pronunciamentos.

      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

      by enhydra lutris on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 01:46:15 PM PST

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      •  Enhydra, as one of your Stone Age sacerdotes, (0+ / 0-)

        I feel it should be mentioned that we (or our G-d, depending upon point of view) introduced to the world ethical monotheism (a HUGE step forward from human sacrifice and the worship of hills, rocks and animals), as well as the first enduring system of government to require welfare for elderly people and widows and orphans, not to mention a legal system that provided for debt forgiveness, and statutes requiring equal justice for rich and poor alike, and laws requiring kindness to strangers (think aliens and refugees in today's world).  Just to make sure I stay partially on topic, we Stone Age sacerdotes were the first people to codify the precedence of the mother's life and health over that of her fetus.  The seeds of modern justice, as well as the beginnings of social welfare, can be traced directly to my Stone Age grandfathers (actually, we became a people during the Bronze Age, but I'll let you get away with the Stone Age jab).

        Observant Jews, though, haven't foisted our laws on anyone, because we believe they are meant for us to obey, not the rest of you.  It is the Church and Islam that have persisted for centuries in forcing a twisted version of our Torah (as well as their own additions) upon humanity in general.  And we Jews certainly haven't been in the business of seeking cannon fodder, although you Gentiles have done a good job of trying to rid the world of us, and more than once.

        As for Rome, which did in fact kick our ass more than once, and crucified somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 of us?  Rome's gone.  We aren't.  The same can be said of several score other empires and states that have, one way or another, kicked our ass over the past 35 centuries.  Despite that, if you look around, you'll find that an out-of-proportion percentage of today's promoters of public welfare are Jews.  Why?  Because many of us still believe those loutish pronunciamentos, and do our best to follow them.

        You're welcome.  

         

        Let the well-being of your fellow man be as dear to you as your own. -- Pirkei Avos

        by Not A Bot on Thu Dec 12, 2013 at 01:20:30 PM PST

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        •  Uh, in a word, no. First, there were other, prior (0+ / 0-)

          monotheists, but, that is not a good thing and no more sensible than worshipping rocks and such. Ethical is not anywhere in the old testament or in the old god's grasp that I ever saw. etc.

          That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

          by enhydra lutris on Thu Dec 12, 2013 at 06:44:05 PM PST

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          •  That's okay. It was never intended for you. (0+ / 0-)

            We find our ethics there, though.

            Let the well-being of your fellow man be as dear to you as your own. -- Pirkei Avos

            by Not A Bot on Thu Dec 12, 2013 at 06:53:12 PM PST

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            •  Slaughter the "others" and enslave their (0+ / 0-)

              women? I'll stick with Kant.

              That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

              by enhydra lutris on Thu Dec 12, 2013 at 08:06:59 PM PST

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              •  We were dealing with small kingdoms that practiced (0+ / 0-)

                child sacrifice and severe cruelty to strangers, and other atrocities.  In that day and age, there were limited means for treating with such people.  Also, you misquoted.

                In reality, it isn't so different from my folks in German camps, who would very much have preferred the Allies bomb the lagers, even given the tremendous collateral damage, if it would only stop the machinery.  Of course, such bombings never occurred, nor were the trains leading to the camps targeted.  They should have been.  Sometimes harm must be done to prevent a greater harm.

                And, according to our records, the Canaanites and the other half dozen kingdoms were never wiped out, anyway, and those people plagued us for centuries (and we occasionally adopted some of their practices, unfortunately).

                It's always been difficult to explain to non-Jews that what you call the Old Testament is not the entirety of our Law; it's not even a small part of it.  It is entirely impossible to even marginally understand Judaism based upon reading only the Tanakh -- without the Talmud, it's like trying to understand a combustion engine by looking at only few manifold bolts, or something similar, if that makes sense.  Would you be able to understand the U.S. system of government by reading only two paragraphs pulled at random from the full text?  Not likely.  Same sort of thing.

                So.  I guess I reacted to your initial post because, well, I will turn 84 Tuesday, and I've seen a hell of a lot of subtle and not-so-subtle dislike of my people, too much for one lifetime, and it bothers me to see a post slamming Jews on a liberal website -- it's bad politics, at best, to ridicule people who are on your side.  I mean, we're a small people -- something like 1 in 2,000 people in the world is a Jew -- and yet we are hugely overrepresented in social causes, and have been throughout the modern era.  We didn't learn our ethics, our concern for the civil rights of others, by reading comic books.  And if you can't see the fundamental ethics in the Tanakh, I can't help you see it, and except for a very few glaringly obvious things, like don't murder, and don't rip the leg off a living animal to eat it, and be just to other humans, none of it applies to you, so you don't need to understand it.

                Anyway. Enhydra, I don't expect either of us to accept or fully understand one another's positions on religion, nor would I wish on you or any person the burdens carried by my folks over the centuries -- that's one of the reasons we don't seek converts.  What I do wish for you is peace and happiness and health and goodness in this life.

                     

                Let the well-being of your fellow man be as dear to you as your own. -- Pirkei Avos

                by Not A Bot on Thu Dec 12, 2013 at 09:31:26 PM PST

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                •  ROF,L. We'are talking about the alleged (0+ / 0-)

                  policies of an alleged god, the need for cannon fodder for wars of conquest and aggression. No whitewashing is possible and there is evidence that child sacrifice was part of his schtick at one time too. But, that is beside the point.  Whatever customs they perform in some other place, it is not the right of militaristic jealous vengeful gods to go wipe them out, directly or by proxy, and it is not ethics.

                  All that aside, my point is that the unspeakable god's campaign of world military conquest failed when it ran into Rome, so his need for cannon fodder is gone, and procreating like rabbits on Viagra is no longer needed to provide footsoldiers for his global wars of conquest. His military campaign failed, and massive procreation is not needed for the ideological struggle subsequently being waged by him and his kid.

                  That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                  by enhydra lutris on Fri Dec 13, 2013 at 09:31:40 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't quite understand why (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    enhydra lutris

                    you think you're accomplishing anything worthwhile by purposefully insulting a large and dependable group of allies.  You see, we actually believe what you might call rubbish (or a lot of us do believe, to one extent or another), and despite that (or rather because of the beliefs), we're arguably the most reliable demographic for progressive causes in the U.S., and have been for a century at least.

                    And you see further that not once in this conversation you and I have enjoyed have I insulted your beliefs (or lack of), but have only tried to explain to you how our beliefs have effected our views on social issues, and for the better by today's standards.  You might want to try the same, and rather than slinging gratuitous insults or laughing at people who see the world differently, try to explain how atheism has improved your life and your humanist personal standards (a substitute for traditional morals), as well as how it has improved life for others in this world.  I mean, neither of us is in the converting business.  I certainly don't want you to become a Jew (there have been times in my life I wouldn't wish that on anyone), and I'm certain you're not recruiting for any antichurch.

                    Let the well-being of your fellow man be as dear to you as your own. -- Pirkei Avos

                    by Not A Bot on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 01:30:32 PM PST

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                    •  I'm simply pointing out the idiocy of those (0+ / 0-)

                      who still do so continuing to spew the "be fruitful & multiply" meme as meaningful. Assuming, arguendo, that the alleged savior's alleged dad really existed and really said that, it was because he was a militaristic imperialist war god, determined on conquest and eliminating all other gods and their adherents. If you grant that, the purpose for that meme stops at Rome. If somebody somewhere is worshipping Baal, Amon or Mithra, he ain't going to send in the marines, so he doesn't need ever more and more able bodied spearmen and most certainly not among his purported kid's followers.

                      That, in its essence, is fascism--ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power. -- Franklin D. Roosevelt --

                      by enhydra lutris on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 02:44:01 PM PST

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                      •  Well, I'd agree that mankind as a whole (0+ / 0-)

                        has already more than amply fulfilled the multiply commandment.

                        On the other hand, my folks have a hard time just keeping our population steady between pogroms.  We always have.

                        Let the well-being of your fellow man be as dear to you as your own. -- Pirkei Avos

                        by Not A Bot on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 05:12:50 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

    •  It Lets Women Pursue and Enjoy Sex. (18+ / 0-)

      That's the right's problem with it.

      We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

      by Gooserock on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 01:55:50 PM PST

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    •  As one of my friends (a Lutheran pastor) says, (6+ / 0-)

      "It's a blessing, not a command."

      Well.  That's not actually an exact quote.  He usually inserts some choice invective.  But yah - the theological grounds for conservative christianity are pathetically shaky, entirely dependent on mistranslations, precise interpretations, and parts of the old law that Paul declared were "nailed to the cross", alone with the prohibitions on mixed fabric and shellfish.

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