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    •  Thanks BlackSheep1! (32+ / 0-)

      You have been consistent in your support. We have a great group here who are very supportive of military families and military issues. I just wish we could see the broader group push the envelope. This is an issue that should be important to the progressive community. Otherwise, how can they claim to support military families after this?

      •  Imo, they never really did support (47+ / 0-)

        The military. They threw them in to Iraq w/o adequate equipment and then stop lossed them.
        I remember the stories of families fund raising to buy armered vests because they went with the military they had, not the one they wanted.
        They paid extra to contractors who then supplied shitty service, food and water. remember the stories of soilders not getting enough water in 120 degree heat?  
        The electrocutions, the toxic burn pits, ect, ect.
        Why don't they have a problem with paying contractors $1,000/day?  
        Then there are the contractors who commited fraud, were fined, then got more contracts, commited fraud,aid a fine,......
        They never cared. If they did they would not throw them back for 4-7 tours w/o proper rest.
        They never cared. They would not put them in harms way for a lie.
        They never cared.

        SORRY FOR THE TYPOS. Ziggy fingers on an Ipad :)

        by snoopydawg on Fri Dec 13, 2013 at 02:48:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Beg to differ, if "they" is the progressive (13+ / 0-)

          community. The progressives I know were screaming bloody murder about Bush, Rummy, Wolfowitz and Cheney throwing low-level military members to the wolves in Abu Ghraib, fucking up the transition so that munitions depots were looted and munitions used for the IED war, firing the entire military, and under-equipping the ground troops.

          You might be confusing the average American who listened to Fox News and every other network, believing things were hunky dory. Progressives knew that they were not, and that that fucking useless was was also quite unnecessarily deadly and dangerous because those chicken hawk assholes in the Bush administration were anxious to avenge Dubya's Daddy and bring back American Empire -- even while neither they nor their loved ones were in harm's way.

          So be specific. "They" was not progressives. It was the Beltway Villagers and the common bamboozled and propagandized American believing what they saw from "embedded" "reporters" on TV kissing the asses of military commanders.

          "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by Kombema on Fri Dec 13, 2013 at 06:13:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nope, I am not (22+ / 0-)

            Talking about progressives at all
            I was at the protests about the Iraq war.
            I joined Kos during that time and cuz of it. I felt I had found a home.
            I am talking about those chicken hawk assholes you mentioned and thevFox news viewers.
            But, I am also talking about Congress.
            Most of them. They kept funding the war, never did shit about the torture except stayed quiet after they were informed of it.
            I am talking about thevsame assholes that got rich knowing who would get the contractors.
            And for the Dems taking accountability for war crimes off the tablevafter they ran on stopping the Bush abuses during '06.
            Think better of me.

            SORRY FOR THE TYPOS. Ziggy fingers on an Ipad :)

            by snoopydawg on Fri Dec 13, 2013 at 08:57:16 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I will insist (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              snoopydawg, LiberalLoner, Kombema

              That Eisenhower's warning was originally about the military-industrial-congressional complex
              But that last he was advised to remove...wonder why.

            •  Congress didn't declare war in Iraq OR in (0+ / 0-)

              Afghanistan. I remember being pissed about that in '03.

              You see, if they'd declared a war, we'd've had to do things to support the war effort -- not "keep calm and go shopping" like w said we should.

              They'd've had to do things to support the war effort, too, like stop cutting taxes on corporations and paying attention to the crimes the contractors were committing against our troops. Couldn't be bothered, Congress.

              LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 09:25:06 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  We have tried austerity and it did NOT WORK. Time (0+ / 0-)

            to go back to running deficits to the extent needed to do what needs to be done by government.  It would be even better to tax the 1% enough to do what NEEDS to be done including mitigating global warming.  Mitigating global warming will require:1) switching to renewable energy instead of fossil fuel, 2) carbon capture and storage, and 3) buying fossil fuel reserves as mineral rights to keep it from being sold to be burned.  I am pretty sure it costs more to clean up after coal than to buy it as mineral rights and more to buy natural gas as mineral rights than to clean up after it.  We still need to figure out what is the least cost way to deal with the fact that there is enough back luck to go around that the poor you have with you always.  I am pretty sure that it is neither to neglect the poor nor to try to exterminate them.

        •  Fucking useless WAR... (10+ / 0-)

          "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

          by Kombema on Fri Dec 13, 2013 at 06:14:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  right from the very beginning (6+ / 0-)

            From Day One it was the wrong thing to be doing.

            And our master chess player bought right into it.

            When the United States of America finally collapses under the accumulated weight of its own inner contradictions and sheer absurdity,  the planet will give a great sigh of relief.

            Hope?  Nope.

            don't always believe what you think

            by claude on Fri Dec 13, 2013 at 10:26:19 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  It's so sad to hear... (6+ / 0-)

            We all know these wars weren't necessary.  We all know one of them was built on fabricated intelligence and really has an unobtainable goal, yet we continue, and many die, and get badly hurt.  But the really sad part about these unnecessary wars, are to hear from someone that they are fighting for our freedoms.  The sad truth, is they aren't.   They aren't fighting for that reason.  
            ( Yes, I was in the military.)  I do not feel the need for anybody to thank me for anything.  I almost feel creepy when someone does that.  

            " With religion you can't get just a little pregnant"

            by EarTo44 on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 07:19:04 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I agree with you about the thanking thing. (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              angelajean, Kombema, quill, maryabein

              I am a vet, married to a disabled Vietnam vet, and I never felt comfortable with that either.  I also knew when we went into Irag, that there were going to be alot of young men and women coming home with serious medical and mental health issues that the US wasn't going to be willing to deal with.  Just like in all the wars we have been in.  Do you know that after WW1, our vets camped out in Washington, D.C. trying to get the pensions promised to them?  That they were fired upon by DC police?  Our whole history as far as vets are concerned "SUCKS'!

              •  this was called The Veterans' Bonus Army (0+ / 0-)

                and the motherfuckingassholebastardgoddamnedsonofabitch who held the White House at the time ordered troops out to dismantle their quarters and chase them out of DC.

                LBJ, Van Cliburn, Ike, Wendy Davis, Lady Bird, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                by BlackSheep1 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 09:27:03 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  I tried explaining here once. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kombema, quill

              The thank you thing.

              It didn't go over very well. In fact, it made some people mad. So I try to be polite and accept the thanks for my husband and my family but it always feels a little weird.

            •  I noticed you mentioned *one* war, but not (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              the other.
              You remember the other one, a few airplanes ramming into things, one additional into the ground?

              You're right. That war was useless. It undermined the construction sector and airplane construction industries.
              It also slowed new job creation, as nobody else in office towers were killed by aircraft ramming into their building, bombs being detonated in their basement or any other such attack.

              And for the record, I lost a cousin on the 84th floor of the south tower. I lost men and some were good friends in Afghanistan.
              I also got to meet the Taliban and AQ fighters that my men captured.
              They are not very nice people. They do believe that they will win and install a grand Caliphate in our country.
              In spite of that, they are also very, very bright people.
              But then, the US long ago conducted research that found, it is impossible to send a moron into that which is effectively a suicide mission. It is trivial to send a genius or at least above average intelligence person into one, having them glad of the honor.

        •  As a military retiree *and* a former DoD (0+ / 0-)

          contractor, I'll partially agree and disagree.

          First, the armored vests were what was issued, which passed established tests and hence, were rated for military service.
          The Dragonskin vests failed the testing, so were not issued.
          Don't blame the Congress and administration for the decisions made by the testing committees of the DoD.

          As for shitty contractor service, I do agree. We were always mixed, with excellent and caring service and also lousy, non-performing or under-performing service.
          But, the latter two cases, one has to blame something far from the national leadership in an immediate sense.
          For, in the non-performing and under-performing contractors, one can directly trace the problem to local regulatory capture, with each higher echelon suffering from the same problem.
          Something I also personally witnessed firsthand, where quality Contract Officers were relieved and transferred in favor of officers who would ignore contract irregularities. The supervising Commissioned Officers over the civilian Contract Officers then retire to become managers for the contracting firm. Again, repeatedly personally witnessed.

          Personally, I got along great with my Contract Officer that was a quality, insisting on abiding by the terms of the contract.
          But then, I FOA'd a copy of the contract and adhered to it faithfully. In spite of my own company management and some military opposition.

      •  They can F*ck the military becuz, (11+ / 0-)

        well, becuz they can.  There are no jobs in this zero jobs "Recovery," so 18 year olds will continue to enlist.  It's the only job around.  And, they'll enlist knowing they're going to get it stuck up their rectum when they retire becuz twenty years is a Long Long Way Down the Road.  Twenty years?  Hell, they ain't even 20 yet.  Twenty years might as well be a hundred.  Retirement bennies?  Nothing to worry about.
        So... so, we'll f*ck the military retirees becuz we can.  Who's going to complain?  Spouses?  Ha!  F*ck them, too.  Civilians?  Civilians don't know the military exists, and those few that do think the bastids are over paid, gouging tax payers for retirement bennies.  Most of them say f*ck the military, too.  "Thank you for your service but... really, we don't want to spend another tax dollar on your ass."
        That's pretty much the sentiment, and congress critters know they can get away with throwing military under the bus.  "See!  We just cut more Deficit Spending!  Yay!  Pat us on the back!"

        •  And the no-bid contracts will likely continue (13+ / 0-)

          to Cheney's company as well as to Blackwater/Xe, Lockheed Martin, Northrup Grumman, Raytheon, Honeywell, General Dynamics, General Atomics, Boeing, B.A.E., General Electric, Colt, Barrett, Trijicon, and on and on and on.

          That's where there are real savings to be had. Not in the troops' retirment pay.

          Reaganomics noun pl: blind faith that unregulated capitalism can provide unlimited goods for unlimited people on a planet with finite resources. Synonyms: trickle-down; voodoo economics. Antonyms: common sense. Related Words: Laffer curve.

          by FrY10cK on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 04:17:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Symptom (0+ / 0-)

          This trend goes well beyond the military.  Over the last few years, people with power have come to the conclusion not only that criminal laws don't apply to them, but also that they are beyond the reach of civil law when it comes to enforcing contracts.  It's not just the military.  States have screwed over civil servants because they can convince their residents that their taxes are being used to fund the cushy retirements of the undeserving.  While the states may have made bad decisions in the past regarding what they could afford, employees who bargained in good faith should not be left holding the bag when they've based their lives for decades around the idea that they were to receive a certain amount at retirement.  Many have given up higher paying jobs for what has turned out to be  the illusory security of civil service.  Moreover, often these employees  aren't eligible for Social Securtiy because of those same contracts that aren't honoured by the taxpayer-chosen governments.

          Companies have also gotten into the act, declaring bankruptcy to avoid meeting their pension obligations even while paying multi-milion dollar bonuses to the executives who implement the plans to impoverish workers (who can't get a do-over on their careers and can't count on having their day in court to fight for what is due them.)

          I have yet to hear of a political or corporate executive winding up on public assistance due to a voided contract.  The best and the brightest are going to be a tough sell to hire into public service at a time when we most need them.

    •  At least Combat Vets deserve full pension (0+ / 0-)

      I have not served in the military, so please correct me if I am wrong on this.  It seems to me that combat vets - and others doing dangerous work such as coast guard at sea in hurricanes - deserve special consideration, as they put their lives on the line for their country. Military people who avoided combat and danger, no more than anyone else.  
      Is that fair?

      •  There is danger to military service members even (0+ / 0-)

        when we are not at war. Dividing up the force into smaller and smaller groups to say one group should get this and the other group should get that is how Congress has managed to chip away at benefits already. Better to keep us one large group. We have a better chance of keeping benefits that way.

    •  Congress consists mainly of complete (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      IDIOTS. They could save 20 billion a year by not handing it to profitable energy companies.

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