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View Diary: Santa is What? (21 comments)

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  •  although I doubt (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Crashing Vor, scilicet

    that the zwarte Piet originated as slaves. They arent played as slaves and dont behave like some, arent seen as slaves by the general population - I think this is an outside interpretation planted on this Dutch tradition.

    its a researchable question though. When did they come up with the zwarte Piet and how?

    The link with Spain is strong - Sinterklaas actually comes from Spain with a steamboat, says the tradition - so the timeline might fit. On the other hand, I suspect it is a pre-reformatory religious tradition - after all, reform started in the Netherlands with an iconoclastic wave. And the spanish takeover of the Netherlands dates from the late middle ages, way before the oceanic trades and the slave trade were developed.

    But I dont want to derail your fine diary (this issue has strong derailment potential)

    •  I dunno. (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marsanges, 1BQ, scilicet, hannah

      I think this thing is eminently derailment-worthy.

      I live under the bridge to the 21st Century.

      by Crashing Vor on Fri Dec 13, 2013 at 12:08:20 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hey I was wrong. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Crashing Vor, The Marti

        That seems to happen daily nowadays. Just yesterday I had to eat crow.

        Oorspronkelijk had Sinterklaas geen helper.[1] In 1850 introduceerde de onderwijzer Jan Schenkman in zijn leesboekje Sint Nicolaas en zijn Knecht drie nieuwe zaken, die zijn blijven hangen in de sinterklaasfolklore: een gekleurde knecht voor Sinterklaas, de intocht en de stoomboot. De knecht heeft in het boekje nog geen naam en was gekleed als een page. In 1859 werd voor het eerst een artikel gedrukt waarin hij Pieter wordt genoemd,[2] en in 1895 was de naam Zwarte Piet al in zwang geraakt.[3][4]
        the zwarte Piet is thus MUCH younger than I had speculated - just middle of last (+) century, actually from a time when slavery was already being outlawed worldwide. Weird. Good to know however.

        (+) shows my age. To this day I boycott the 21st century. I´m a 20th century man, and will die as one.

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