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View Diary: I have been a gun owner for more than 30 years…and 365 days (183 comments)

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  •  Good diary. I think you're setting out what needs (43+ / 0-)

    to be done first. We have to have a different culture in our relationship to guns. We have to become an adult, collectively, and treat them with the seriousness they merit. We don't have that maturity yet. Guns are instruments of power and powerlessness. We can't afford this anymore.
    When we can get some simple background checks in place then we'll know we're beginning to grow up.

    You can't make this stuff up.

    by David54 on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 05:23:32 AM PST

    •  We need a total ban. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      oldpotsmuggler, Larsstephens

      And we don't need any hunting either.

      Too many animals have been hunted to extinction.

      Lets give the wild animals a break.

      •  No. (12+ / 0-)

        And a total ban on hunting?

        If you get up where I live, we've got way too many white-tailed deer. Since their natural predators (wolves) are gone, their population has skyrocketed with resulting winter kills and disease (CWD).

        Most hunters are responsible. We need them on our side.

        •  We don't need hunters to cull the deer (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens

          We could hire trained people if it is needed.

          We have plenty of deer around here and no hunters.

          Now the only real argument in defense of guns is human overpopulation.  I would hope we have a better solution than indiscriminate violence.

          •  I'm sure the deer will be grateful (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Larsstephens, Mike Kahlow, FrankRose

            that they guy who shot them was a professional rather than an amateur putting meat on the family table.

            Surely a virtuous society is one where duty and obligation takes the place of pleasure.

            I've lost my faith in nihilism

            by grumpynerd on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 01:11:47 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, but one of the one hundred thousand (0+ / 0-)

              people shot every year would sure have enjoyed a ban on guns.

              •  Ab abusu ad usum non valet consequentia. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                OldJackPine, Mike Kahlow, David54

                This is maxim from Roman jurisprudence which means “Consequences of abuse of something does not invalidate its usefulness.”

                The idea is that you don't automatically deprive everyone of something because some people are abusing it.  This includes a number of things whose abuse is quite terrible, like alcohol.  You address the abuses first in ways that don't unduly affect the legitimate uses.

                The problem is that people think in black and white. They see slippery slopes everywhere.  It's easy to get them equating commonsense things like no-loophole background checks with total gun deprivation.

                The idea of a total firearms ban in this country is sheer fantasy. Even if you could pass such a law, it would only instantly create millions of scofflaws and a huge black market -- like there is for marijuana, only bigger and more dangerous. But that doesn't matter, because it's all just fantasy. If a ban hasn't happened even after all these school shootings, it will never happen.

                Because of the paranoid, irrational fear of a total gun ban, we can't even reach the low-hanging fruit that would save plenty lives without anything more than mild inconvenience to people who use their guns in a responsible manner. If you want to make progress, stop throwing gasoline on the fires of paranoia.

                Banging the fantasy ban drum in an atmosphere of gun-owner paranoia is counter-productive.  To make progress in gun control, we need to lower the emotional temperature of the discussion to the point where reason has a chance to be heard. We'll never outcrazy the loonies who believe that everyone who walks into an elementary school ought to be wearing a gun.

                I've lost my faith in nihilism

                by grumpynerd on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 06:45:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Contradictions, contradictions (0+ / 0-)
                  The idea is that you don't automatically deprive everyone of something because some people are abusing it.  This includes a number of things whose abuse is quite terrible, like alcohol.  You address the abuses first in ways that don't unduly affect the legitimate uses.
                  Weirdly, this principle you aspouse can be broken quite often by people on your side of the gun issue as long as its something they don't give a shit about, ala video games, movies, etc, apparently, atleast with the diarist, and a few members commenting  here, but I'm not sure of you, but apparently many people in this comment thread do not subscribe to that sentiment, as it was quite clear  that the diarist had to make a beeline for the dead beaten horse of the video game canard, to try to bolstrer his case.

                  So, apparently this princple is only subscribed to when its convenant for the RTBA side, but they'll drop it at the sign of thinking they have an advatage using something else as a scapegoat.

                  •  Appeals to "ban video games" meet the same (0+ / 0-)

                    resistance the commenter is talking about regarding guns.
                    To the extent that our collective attitude about guns is reflected in our video games, we need to look at that.

                    It doesn't mean we have to ban them.
                    There are only two types of person who would posit the idea of a total gun ban::
                    The sincere believer who is totally willing to ignore the magical process that would be necessary to ban guns (and the civil war that would result), and a troll whose just looking to cast incredibility upon Dkos discussions.
                    I admire the total ban commenter for being sincere and expressing an unpopular view, but I think it's very unrealistic at this stage in our development.

                    The only way it will ever be possible for us to eliminate gun violence in our society, is for the culture to mature and set aside the hysteria, as grumpynerd suggests. That will be the first step.

                    You can't make this stuff up.

                    by David54 on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 07:17:08 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  What is "my side of the gun issue"? nt (0+ / 0-)

                    I've lost my faith in nihilism

                    by grumpynerd on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 08:13:00 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  I think the deer would be grateful (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Duckmg

              to be just as armed.

              I think it was either Carlin or Michael Moore who had a great bit on hunters wouldn't finding it so "sporting" though the rest of us would if the deer got to shoot back.

      •  Good luck with that. (0+ / 0-)

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 11:34:14 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Yea, It is better that people go hungry. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Mike Kahlow

        I hunt although I don't enjoy it.  I garden although I don't enjoy it.  I do however enjoy eating.  

        •  Yeah right (0+ / 0-)

          I am sure you have to hunt to eat.

          And damn few, if any, are going hungry in this country without hunting.  Maybe some Eskimos.

          •  I could probably make it, maybe. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ladybug53, nzanne, Mike Kahlow, FrankRose

            It cost me 36 dollars for a deer and elk license, another 100 or so for the pork to mix with it, add in gas, ammo etc.  and we have enough meat for the year for less then $150.  We will supplement that with fish that we got this summer and will catch by ice fishing this winter.  I could go buy meat but then there goes the internet service, the t.v. service and a few other luxuries.  I won't lie.  I miss going into a grocery store and buying whatever I want. On the other hand we probably eat healthier then most.

            •  Even if what you say is true, (0+ / 0-)

              and I have my doubts, we don't need  one hundred thousand people getting shot every year so you can have a good deal on meat.

              •  Like I said further down in the comments... (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Mike Kahlow, FrankRose

                I am not "pure" enough to be a DK member anymore.  I come here and it is just another echo chamber, as bad as anything on the right.

                •  It's not you, RenFriend, it's (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OldJackPine, Mike Kahlow

                  the guy you're responding to who is rude.

                  Hunting is necessary as yes, we have killed off many predators and built over much range and forest of deer and elk. Further, you absolutely do eat better and cheaper by doing your own 'dirty work', and you give the animal a far better life too than critters grown in too-small cages.

                  Good on you, really.

                  The number of children and teens killed by guns in one year would fill 134 classrooms of 20 students each. (Chlldren's Defense Fund, 2013)

                  by nzanne on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 05:14:53 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Don't let the purity patrols get you down. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  OldJackPine

                  This site needs the input & perspective of every reasonable progressive.

                  We're here for lots of reasons, for fun, for socializing, for pootie pictures, but mostly for sharing thoughts on how to best get more and better Democrats elected.

                  Hope you stick with us.

                  •  And what purity patrol would that be? (0+ / 0-)

                    The one that demands the Democratic party moves center right? That purity patrol?

                    And how is envoking the almighty slur of "purity" towards those further to the left of you encouraging civil discourse, if anything that's one step away from calling the person a "firebagger" which is thankfully against the rules here, but for someone wagging there boney self righteous finger at me for whatever you claim I was being uncivil about then you have the balls to make "purity" comments knowing that if this was in a more mainstream area of DK and gotten more readers, the shitstorm you were purposely trying to bring be making that ad homiinem.

                    Good job on your hypocracy, "Mike"
                    !!!! Big thumbs up for that one!!!

              •  Maybe I should add what I am for (5+ / 0-)

                I am for background checks.
                I am for a gun registry.
                I am for a ban on hand guns.
                I am for strong training before you can buy a gun.

        •  Even if we have to move to government harvest, (0+ / 0-)

          I have no problem with allowing the persons who used to hunt for subsistence to be the ones to salvage the carcasses.

          There can be no protection locally if we're content to ignore the fact that there are no controls globally.

          by oldpotsmuggler on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 02:04:54 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Your thinking empowers (0+ / 0-)

        the absolutists on the other side.  

        The NERA thanks you for your opinion.

        The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

        by ctexrep on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 01:42:42 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  I Think We've Actually Lost That Maturity (11+ / 0-)

      Not to be disagreeable because this is an excellent post but when my grandmother taught me to shoot when I was 8 years old she had that maturity and passed it on to me. Things like a gun is not romantic, not an answer for anything, and not something to play with. A gun is a lethal tool. One that must be respected at all times and carelessness never allowed. And perhaps most importantly it only takes a fraction of a second to pull that trigger but you can never take that fraction of a second back. And I actually thought back then that was the way most gun owners were. But as I look around today I think we've lost that somehow and now have far too many guns in the hands of people who have no business owning one.

      Collect Different Days

      by Homers24 on Sat Dec 14, 2013 at 11:27:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I agree completely that we've lost that (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OldJackPine

        maturity. If you look at the Westerns of the "50's" and some of the other violence related movies, a major theme of some of the most important ones was the idea of the mature gunslinger who was sick of violence but who would stand up to the bad guy reluctantly, because  he was chosen by fate to be the one.
        There was usually a young punk with an "itchy trigger finger" and/or a local loudmouth trying to organize a posse or a lynch mob, etc.
        These themes were produced with the awareness that many of the adults raising families were veterans of WWII who knew what real violence was like and were sick of it.
        Now gunplay in movies is "magical" , everyone has an itchy trigger finger, and gun advocates are often the immature punks (of assorted ages) with gun lust or the blowhards who could care less how much damage they cause.

        You can't make this stuff up.

        by David54 on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 07:27:42 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Sorry I Missed This (0+ / 0-)

          I don't know how I missed this but I'm sorry I did because these are great points and one I actually remember myself.

          Collect Different Days

          by Homers24 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 at 12:02:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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